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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  October 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER October 2008

Subject:

Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP

From:

Stefan Wasilewski <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 3 Oct 2008 23:08:16 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (345 lines)

You have just bumped up against the unilateral problem in Life.

As someone whose spent the last 10-years trying to introduce products  
into a mature market place that make sense to the 'man on the street'  
the problem is with the 'gate keepers'.

There's a conundrum: How do you get capital to make the leap to  
sensible product when it takes a leap of faith to invest, even though  
the research says the market wants it?

Here's where you're at: You've got a great product that works and yet  
the broader society has gate-keepers with a restricted diversity!

We know it works, get them to see it. By the way, shouting doesn't  
work, quiet persuasion does.

Stefan

On 3 Oct 2008, at 19:49, Stuart Umpleby wrote:

> The discussion following my talk on the VSM to the Asso. of Enterprise
> Architects in DC (about 12 in the room and others listening remotely)
> was along the lines of "interesting, intriguing, but how do you
> persuade people in organizations to take this approach."  I think they
> saw it as risky, as outside the mainstream.  I said that the VSM can
> be used in "diagnosing" an organization as part of a periodic review
> and redesign.  This approach seemed to be well-received, but the
> overall concept was still new and unfamiliar.  I said that it is
> important to work with the idea over a period of months to become
> familiar with it.  I think they thought they could not get that much
> time for such an effort.  Haiping Luo, address above, who arranges
> lectures for this association, was interested in the VSM.  She may
> have thoughts on how to arrange one or more experiments.  Stuart
>
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 3:16 AM, Leonid Ototsky <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Cool !
>> And what about their interest in the VSM ?
>> And is a possibility to communicate with them ?
>> Also look (below)at an interest to the VSM from Oracle
>>
>> Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>> --------
>>
>> << As I said on the last IOUC PDC call, I have had an approach from
>> Leonid Ototsky a Russian, who is an advocate of Stafford Beer's work.
>> He wonders if this is something Oracle may be interested in around
>> Fusion.
>> Thanks to Floyd I have a better understanding of this:
>> "First, understand that most of Stafford Beer's work (which is  
>> rooted in
>> Operations Research ), culminated in the
>> application of cybernetics to develop the Viable System Model  
>> ("VSM").
>> Loosely defined, cybernetics is the science of
>> control while management is the professional of control. The VSM  
>> suggests
>> that it is possible for systems to become
>> self-sustaining within a particular environment, and for those  
>> systems to
>> evolve and adapt to internal changes in that
>> environment . The IT concepts of adaptive and self-healing systems  
>> are
>> closely related to the VSM. The idea is that the
>> system can continuously collect feedback from the surrounding  
>> environment,
>> recognize changes as they occur, and
>> smoothly adapt to those changes in a smooth, controlled fashion  
>> rather
>> than requiring radical and disruptive change in
>> the system or reinvention of the system ."
>> Is there a methodology SIG this could be part of?
>> I have copied this to Leonid so he can see we are pursuing his  
>> interest.
>> Debra Lilley
>> Director - IOUC Product Development Committee Fusion Channel
>> Mobile 07867 822186
>> E-mail [log in to unmask]
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> I recently gave a talk on the VSM to the Asso. for Enterprise
>>> Architects in DC.  Apparently these people design the IT systems for
>>> govt agencies.  So, if you want to implement the VSM at a higher  
>>> level
>>> than an ERP system provides, perhaps enterprise architecture is an
>>> alternative.
>>> Regards, Stuart Umpleby
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 3:21 PM, Leonid Ototsky <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> Stefan,
>>>> Of course these two "hegemons" are too large and rigid !
>>>> But how to organize a real implempentation of the VSM as a
>>>> superstructure
>>>> above the ERP ??
>>>>
>>>> Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Guys
>>>>>
>>>>> I believe Javier and I would agree with Stafford; but for a  
>>>>> completely
>>>>> different reason as both SAP and Oracle were not really around  
>>>>> to the
>>>>> depth they are now.
>>>>>
>>>>> Both are not software providers but consultants with little  
>>>>> interest
>>>>> in support bespoke systems. What's more they're hegemony with all
>>>>> that goes wrong with such things.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are better systems that allow the VSM to be embedded and use
>>>>> redundant arrays to achieve scale. These allow for local  
>>>>> parameters to
>>>>> be changed yet absorbed into larger meta-systems so creating
>>>>> recursiveness etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Don't spin your wheels on things now when the world is about to  
>>>>> change.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just a thought
>>>>>
>>>>> Stefan
>>>>>
>>>>> On 1 Oct 2008, at 14:27, Ern Reynolds wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Leonid,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        This is an interesting idea indeed.  I hope you did mean
>>>>>> "integration" rather than "syntegration".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        Oracle is a large scale database management system for
>>>>>> enterprise-wide operations.  Its chief competitor in the US and
>>>>>> especially Europe is SAP Ag based in Walldorf, Germany.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        If Oracle does not choose to furnish some corporate  
>>>>>> funding
>>>>>> for your idea then SAP might.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        As a side note, Stafford was not at all keen on seeing his
>>>>>> VSM put up in someone else's software, but that should be no  
>>>>>> barrier
>>>>>> to us.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        Four related points of caution.  (a) My own experience in
>>>>>> expressing the VSM in software (using the insight modeling /
>>>>>> decision support package Expert Choice) was that it is vastly  
>>>>>> easier
>>>>>> to make the result cosmetically look like the VSM than to  
>>>>>> actually
>>>>>> work like the VSM.  It requires much non-superficial VSM  
>>>>>> sensitivity
>>>>>> and nuance to get any substantial gains from adding software.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        (b) Whether Oracle or SAP get involved by putting up some
>>>>>> money, those firms will do so if it looks like a marketing
>>>>>> opportunity.  So the result is much more likely to be an outcome
>>>>>> that merely looks like the VSM than actually performing as the  
>>>>>> VSM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        Marketing people are into positioning follow-on sales.   
>>>>>> When
>>>>>> the software does not improve operations very much (the far too
>>>>>> typical outcome as litigation history reveals), the inevitable
>>>>>> solution suggested is buy more of their product and services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        (c)  Only a healthy well-functioning operation should dare
>>>>>> be subjected to what Oracle or SAP has to offer.  An already  
>>>>>> robust
>>>>>> client entity will benefit from the experience.  But a shaky
>>>>>> operation is guaranteed to be put out of business when the  
>>>>>> Oracle/
>>>>>> SAP cure is tried.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>        (d)  Be sure to retain tight ownership and control of
>>>>>> whatever VSM-related work product results from Oracle or SAP  
>>>>>> input.
>>>>>> Those firms will otherwise prostitute and dilute VSM capabilities
>>>>>> and reputation if given half a chance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ern Reynolds
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:15:44 +0600 Leonid Ototsky <[log in to unmask]>  
>>>>>> writes:
>>>>>>> Dear Colleagues.
>>>>>>> My friend Anatoly Savin now is learning at the Newcastle  
>>>>>>> Business
>>>>>>> School.
>>>>>>> He is great specialist in Oracle tools and Oracle  
>>>>>>> Applications. He
>>>>>>> took
>>>>>>> part in adapting Oracle Applications for Russia (Financials  
>>>>>>> module)
>>>>>>> under
>>>>>>> a Contract with Oracle Russia.
>>>>>>> Suppose there is a good possibility to organize an integration  
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> the VSM
>>>>>>> with Oracle (the first interest I marked in the presentation  
>>>>>>> in 2007
>>>>>>> -
>>>>>>> http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/it/papers/stafford_heritage21.pdf (see
>>>>>>> Supplement-1)
>>>>>>> . A meeting could be organized in the Hull University which is  
>>>>>>> near
>>>>>>> to the
>>>>>>> Newcastle. Except the representatives of the VSM community and
>>>>>>> Anatoly
>>>>>>> there must be some from the Oracle UK as well !!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Leonid Ototsky - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go  
>>>>>>> to:
>>>>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For
>>>>>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum
>>>>>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>>
>>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>>
>>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>>
>>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>>
>>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>>
>>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Stuart Umpleby, Research Program in Social and Organizational  
>>> Learning
>>> 2033 K Street NW, Suite 230, The George Washington University,
>>> Washington, DC 20052
>>> www.gwu.edu/~umpleby, tel. 202-994-1642, fax 202-994-5284
>>>
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>>
>>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>> www.platformforchange.org
>>>
>>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
>>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>>
>>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
>>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>>
>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>>
>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Stuart Umpleby, Research Program in Social and Organizational Learning
> 2033 K Street NW, Suite 230, The George Washington University,
> Washington, DC 20052
> www.gwu.edu/~umpleby, tel. 202-994-1642, fax 202-994-5284
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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