LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER  October 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER October 2008

Subject:

Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP

From:

Leonie Solomons <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:27:55 +1000

Content-Type:

multipart/mixed

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (490 lines) , TEXT/PLAIN (25 lines)

Angela, it is interesting that you mention 'teaching business people' 
for conveying the essence of the VSM using multimedia was what Susan 
Jones addressed in her doctoral dissertation.  

At the Sunderland Metaphorum event, you may even recall Susan's 
multimedia presentation.  

Leonie 



. 

----- Original Message -----
From: Angela Espinosa <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 7:13 am
Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP

> Roger (and all)
> Regarding the -very useful- discussion about the diagram, I do 
> agree that it'd be right and good to come up with something easier 
> to intuition and still respecting the basic meanings. With another 
> way of talking about it. We can be creative about it and find new 
> ways of saying what he originally said without loosing its core 
> meaning. I agree with Russell also that most people find it 
> threatening and it creates distances between non experts and 
> experts. 
> My own experience learning and teaching the VSM has been a 
> permanent challenge to try to express in as a simple and close to 
> intuition way as I can the basic principles and distinctions it 
> offers. In particular teaching business people is highly 
> challenging for the reasons Russell well said. Any effort we can 
> make to progress in this direction is worth and a priority for us 
> in the Metaphorum.
> I'm up for a further discussion on how we progress in this 
> direction. 
> Angela
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer on behalf of 
> Roger Harnden
> Sent: Sun 10/5/2008 11:39
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP
> 
> There are a variety of clear introductions to the model, and the Wiki
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viable_System_Model
> 
> although presently quirky in its interpretation, has some really  
> useful LINKS. From the WIKI's External Links, the two papers by 
> Jon  
> Walker and Patrick Hoverstadt are interesting and useful in quite  
> different ways/styles.
> 
> Doesn't really address my more general rumination, though...
> 
> Roger
> On 4 Oct 2008, at 18:24, Nick Green wrote:
> 
> > Sure, Roger but I do think the time is ripe for, well, 
> something. A  
> > letter from us all to Brown and World Bank telling them how to  
> > regulate? We should know and some of us actually know the 
> buzzwords  
> > of derivative and secondary markets (not me!) . As a 
> cybernetician I  
> > do not really understand the relationship between velocity of 
> money  
> > and capital invested. In many ways it seems trivial- in others 
> not  
> > so. "How do we add value?" is probably the underlying question. 
> How  
> > does a gold statue of Kate Moss in the British Museum play out 
> here?  
> > Dissipating risk or delocalising it adds some value. We call it  
> > "insurance"- a well spring of socialism or free markets, I 
> suppose.  
> > Meanwhile large enterprises of all kinds, including governments, 
> 
> > waste our money on a fantastic scale. Finding an optimal mix of  
> > redundancy and reliability is possibly the key cybernetic question.
> >
> > Incidentally Taleb is on wiki at
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Taleb
> > His book is an odd collection of anecdote and trenchant 
> criticism  
> > with serious experience in derivatives trading. I don't see it 
> as  
> > implicitly evil- but fraudulent trading certainly is and no 
> doubt  
> > bad money drives out good, as Gresham had it.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Roger Harnden
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 5:17 PM
> > Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP
> >
> > Not angst, Nick. There is after all the really interesting 
> challenge  
> > as to why Staffords ideas have not reached a greater audience, 
> since  
> > most of us find the model powerful and insightful, as do most  
> > clients. All I was trying to do is re-assess what a possible 
> barrier  
> > to take-up might be.
> >
> > I was not really, I suppose commenting on the thread  
> > 'Integration.....'. Once more indicates possible shortcoming of 
> this  
> > sort of coms I suppose.....And my own clumsy interjection!!!
> > On 4 Oct 2008, at 16:48, Nick Green wrote:
> >
> >> All this angst- to what effect?
> >>
> >> Let us remind ourselves that it is accountability we seek to  
> >> increase our viability.  Of course governments and companies 
> resist  
> >> being accountable but even the Big Six auditing companies 
> realise  
> >> the game's up.
> >> http://www.cybsoc.org/#realt
> >> When governments have to lend banks money (because of 
> widespread  
> >> fraud?) capitalism has died. All we need are products that are 
> fit  
> >> for purpose. We don't get them. VSM, unlike any other 
> methodology,  
> >> shows us how to get them: real-time accountability and 
development.
> >>
> >> By the by re the unreliability of models etc Nicholas Taleb's  
> >> "Fooled by Randomness", an extended essay on randomness in 
> markets,  
> >> is available at alt.binaries.mp3.audiobooks. It went up on 
> Friday  
> >> so it'll likely be there for 5 or 6 more days.
> >>
> >> It's worth saying that the performance of an optimally managed  
> >> enterprise will look random and thus maximally packed with  
> >> information. After a few years of analysing time series I was  
> >> struck that deterministic periods occurred (when a forecast 
> could  
> >> be made) but most of the time- particularly after aggregation, 
> the  
> >> series were random. We were using Jones' Gamma Test which is a 
> good  
> >> tool for Cyber filtration and has neural net modelling built 
> in.  
> >> Stafford's tech stuff in a box and its free.
> >> 
http://users.cs.cf.ac.uk/Antonia.J.Jones/GammaArchive/IndexPage.htm
> >>
> >> That methodology is about as good as it gets and was published 
> in  
> >> Proceedings of Royal Society 2002. I was able to introduce 
> Jones to  
> >> Stafford but I think it was his last time in Wales. But moving  
> >> averages are enough to get things going...
> >>
> >> Best
> >>
> >> N.
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Roger Harnden
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 3:37 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP
> >>
> >> Yes, once more I agree...........This is bad!!!
> >>
> >> A flash of maybe really stupid insight....
> >>
> >>
> >> I think we are much of the time bobbing about the waves of a 
> choppy  
> >> sea of Maturana's multiverse. The more I think about it - 
> solely  
> >> prompted by this tiny thread - it seems to me that it might 
> well be  
> >> the 'diagramatic' nature of the model that serves as both its  
> >> wonderful seductive quality AND its weakness.
> >>
> >> I know it might sound heretical, but might it not be that the 
> VSM  
> >> (in the sense of Stafford's powerful insights) might be better  
> >> conveyed WITHOUT the classical diagramatic tools????? Just a  
> >> thought for us all???????????
> >>
> >>
> >> We all endlessly return to the issue of the limited impact of 
> what,  
> >> especially practitioners, find a powerful toolset. And we never 
> 
> >> seem to come up with convincing answers. Any thoughts on 
> whether  
> >> the diagrams might be to blame???????
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Roger
> >>
> >>
> >> On 4 Oct 2008, at 14:39, R Clemens wrote:
> >>
> >>> "What then was Cybersyn?" (John) - Yes, I was waiting for that 
> one.>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Indeed what was Cybersyn? Some might suggest it was a failure 
> of  
> >>> historic magnitude?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Could it be described, perhaps, as an intervention in the  
> >>> governance of a country that precipitated subsequent fascist  
> >>> reactions leaving a nation under the control of Pinochet's  
> >>> military and subsequent Nobel peace prize winners and their  
> >>> various supporting not-so-secret agencies for decades? I can 
> see  
> >>> SAP and Oracle bidding for that one! BTW, China might be a  
> >>> potential new market - the government there is checking all  
> >>> skype                calls as well internet traffic these days 
> I  
> >>> hear. Scientific management tools are just what they need! I'm 
> 
> >>> sure they are working on it right now. Let's hope it fails again.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> But my point was not to criticise those who worked at the time 
> in  
> >>> Chile towards good ends.  Rather it was to suggest that there 
> is a  
> >>> difference between human action undertaken in conformance with 
> 
> >>> theory (be it Plato's or the VSM in this case) and any form of 
> 
> >>> automated ICT system that purports to be the theory in action. 
> 
> >>> What are in place are systems to achieve specific work ends - 
> e.g.  
> >>> payroll. If a 'whole' governance system emerges in the minds 
> of  
> >>> the architects and designers then that is confirmation of  
> >>> alignment with VSM theory.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> For example, if Cybersyn was a practical implementation of the 
> VSM  
> >>> then we need no more than a few fax machines and a Star Trek  
> >>> control bridge to do it right here and now. But we have even 
> more  
> >>> these days: I'd assume that the industrial military complex's  
> >>> implementation of the modern internet is at least half the  
> >>> equation in place.  The key for Cybersyn was there were humans 
> who  
> >>> knew what was needed by way of information and knowledge  
> >>> management. Their informed decisions were the results in terms 
> of  
> >>> human political actions - e.g. strike busting. The wisdom, in 
> hind  
> >>> sight, of what they did is another issue altogether.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So, we now have a new world. Payroll systems, HR systems, 
> finance  
> >>> systems coming out our collective ears. And what do we see 
> today  
> >>> as we look out our windows? Homo Fabre at work to the degree 
> that  
> >>> we now apparently have planetary system problems of huge  
> >>> unsustainability scales; financial systems meltdowns; credit  
> >>> crunches chocking off consumption driven economic systems; 
> experts  
> >>> crying in the wilderness for years about the impending crises 
> due  
> >>> to a lack of systemic viability and underlying corruption; and 
> to  
> >>> top it all, a complete lack of credible leadership or 
> responsible  
> >>> restraint by the plutocrats 'in charge'.  (That about covers 
> the  
> >>> S1-to-S5 cluster I think).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So, I just get a touch cynical when I see belief in machines  
> >>> acting as an opiate for the masses. I get a touch more 
> agitated  
> >>> when I sense that the experts are falling for the same story. 
> All  
> >>> the data we need is there in truck loads. So, we have a VSM to 
> 
> >>> diagnose and audit this situation and reflect on it. Good. But 
> we  
> >>> do not have a "VSM system" to replace human cognition and 
> ethics.  
> >>> (Roger has since more succinctly put this difference in domain 
> 
> >>> issue).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> And while I'm at it (it being a good time Saturday night local 
> 
> >>> standard time) - I'd question the view that the VSM diagram 
> etc is  
> >>> an effective communications mechanism for real world practice. 
> In  
> >>> my experience it is not. Yes, it is accurate for use by 
> informed  
> >>> experts, however, most people I speak to about it see the VSM  
> >>> schematic as an 'Egyptian Hieroglyph' - i.e. largely  
> >>> undecipherable.  If cybernetics is about communications and  
> >>> hierarchy in the real world today (circa. 2008) then Stafford 
> 's  
> >>> works may as well have been written in Sanskrit for today's  
> >>> management class.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> That should get some teeth gnashing and foam at the corner of 
> the  
> >>> mouths of the dear learned believers!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Cheers
> >>>
> >>> Russell .
> >>>
> >>> (Good night and good luck ... ;-)p
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> p.s. re: Google groups ... I am not pushing the Google 
> approach --  
> >>> just noting the 'keeping of gates' ... yes, if it works then 
> use  
> >>> it.... ;-)
> >>>
> >>> --- On Sat, 4/10/08, John Waters <[log in to unmask]> 
> wrote:>>> From: John Waters <[log in to unmask]>
> >>> Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP
> >>> To: [log in to unmask]
> >>> Received: Saturday, 4 October, 2008, 8:44 PM
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 2008-10-03 at 18:55 -0700, R Clemens wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > 1. I thought the VSM was a model for thinking about the 
> world -  
> >>> not so
> >>> > much acting within it.
> >>>
> >>> What then was Cybersyn?
> >>>
> >>> John :)
> >>>
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >>>
> >>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go 
to:
> >>>
> >>> www.platformforchange.org
> >>>
> >>> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at -
> >>> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>>
> >>> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at -
> >>> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>>
> >>> Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail.  
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
> For  
> >>> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
> >>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> www.platformforchange.org 
> >>>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
> >>>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
> >>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
> For  
> >> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
> >> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> www.platformforchange.org 
> >>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
> >>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> No virus found in this incoming message.
> >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> >> Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1706 - Release Date: 
> 
> >> 03/10/2008 18:17
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
> For  
> >> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
> >> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go 
> to:www.platformforchange.org 
> >>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
> >>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
> >>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
> For  
> > more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
> > Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> www.platformforchange.org 
> >  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
> >  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> > Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1706 - Release Date:  
> > 03/10/2008 18:17
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
> For  
> > more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum  
> > Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> www.platformforchange.org 
> >  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html 
> >  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html 
> >  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> 
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> www.platformforchange.org
> 
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> 
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> 
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> 
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: 
> www.platformforchange.org
> 
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> 
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> 
http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



***************************************************************************************** To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://www.hull.ac.uk/legal/email_disclaimer.html ***************************************************************************************** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

September 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
August 2017
May 2017
November 2016
October 2016
July 2016
June 2016
March 2016
November 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager