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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  October 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER October 2008

Subject:

Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP

From:

"Garderen, Harold van" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 1 Oct 2008 21:53:42 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (229 lines)

Gents,

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid most regular ERP implementations don't contain the type of information one needs to build a VSM on. Data is often restricted to logistics operations, even if the scope contains sales, after-sales, etc. Marketing, R&D, HR, etc are missing 100% in most cases.

Even worse, data-warehouses are always a source of misintepretation. Hence the booming but ill-fated rise of BI tools and consulting-like services.

I suggest to approach the problem from the other side: what small process/system/training combi can be introduced (like Adobe has done with the Reader) to spread VSM practice widely despite the existance of large behemoths like Oracle and SAP?

With kind regards,
 
Harold van Garderen | OcÚ-Technologies B.V. | Senior Services Researcher | Document Services Valley
Postbus 101, 5900 MA Venlo | St. Urbanusweg 43 | The Netherlands
T +31 (0) 77 359 2446 | M +31 (0) 6 532 94 325 | G 6258 |  [log in to unmask] |  www.oce.nl |  Trade register 12002662
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer 
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of 
> Leonid Ototsky
> Sent: woensdag 1 oktober 2008 21:22
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Integration of the VSM with Oracle or SAP
> 
> Stefan,
> Of course these two "hegemons" are too large and rigid !
> But how to organize a real implempentation of the VSM as a 
> superstructure above the ERP ??
> 
> Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > Guys
> >
> > I believe Javier and I would agree with Stafford; but for a 
> completely 
> > different reason as both SAP and Oracle were not really 
> around to the 
> > depth they are now.
> >
> > Both are not software providers but consultants with little 
> interest 
> > in support bespoke systems. What's more they're hegemony 
> with all that 
> > goes wrong with such things.
> >
> > There are better systems that allow the VSM to be embedded and use 
> > redundant arrays to achieve scale. These allow for local 
> parameters to 
> > be changed yet absorbed into larger meta-systems so creating 
> > recursiveness etc.
> >
> > Don't spin your wheels on things now when the world is 
> about to change.
> >
> > Just a thought
> >
> > Stefan
> >
> > On 1 Oct 2008, at 14:27, Ern Reynolds wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Leonid,
> >>
> >>         This is an interesting idea indeed.  I hope you did mean 
> >> "integration" rather than "syntegration".
> >>
> >>         Oracle is a large scale database management system for 
> >> enterprise-wide operations.  Its chief competitor in the US and 
> >> especially Europe is SAP Ag based in Walldorf, Germany.
> >>
> >>         If Oracle does not choose to furnish some 
> corporate funding 
> >> for your idea then SAP might.
> >>
> >>         As a side note, Stafford was not at all keen on seeing his 
> >> VSM put up in someone else's software, but that should be 
> no barrier 
> >> to us.
> >>
> >>         Four related points of caution.  (a) My own experience in 
> >> expressing the VSM in software (using the insight modeling 
> / decision 
> >> support package Expert Choice) was that it is vastly 
> easier to make 
> >> the result cosmetically look like the VSM than to actually 
> work like 
> >> the VSM.  It requires much non-superficial VSM sensitivity 
> and nuance 
> >> to get any substantial gains from adding software.
> >>
> >>         (b) Whether Oracle or SAP get involved by putting up some 
> >> money, those firms will do so if it looks like a marketing 
> >> opportunity.  So the result is much more likely to be an 
> outcome that 
> >> merely looks like the VSM than actually performing as the VSM.
> >>
> >>         Marketing people are into positioning follow-on 
> sales.  When 
> >> the software does not improve operations very much (the far too 
> >> typical outcome as litigation history reveals), the inevitable 
> >> solution suggested is buy more of their product and services.
> >>
> >>         (c)  Only a healthy well-functioning operation 
> should dare be 
> >> subjected to what Oracle or SAP has to offer.  An already robust 
> >> client entity will benefit from the experience.  But a shaky 
> >> operation is guaranteed to be put out of business when the Oracle/ 
> >> SAP cure is tried.
> >>
> >>         (d)  Be sure to retain tight ownership and control of 
> >> whatever VSM-related work product results from Oracle or SAP input.
> >> Those firms will otherwise prostitute and dilute VSM 
> capabilities and 
> >> reputation if given half a chance.
> >>
> >> Ern Reynolds
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 1 Oct 2008 13:15:44 +0600 Leonid Ototsky 
> <[log in to unmask]> writes:
> >> > Dear Colleagues.
> >> > My friend Anatoly Savin now is learning at the Newcastle 
> Business 
> >> > School.
> >> > He is great specialist in Oracle tools and Oracle 
> Applications. He 
> >> > took part in adapting Oracle Applications for Russia (Financials 
> >> > module) under a Contract with Oracle Russia.
> >> > Suppose there is a good possibility to organize an 
> integration of 
> >> > the VSM with Oracle (the first interest I marked in the 
> >> > presentation in 2007
> >> > -
> >> > http://www.ototsky.mgn.ru/it/papers/stafford_heritage21.pdf (see
> >> > Supplement-1)
> >> > . A meeting could be organized in the Hull University 
> which is near 
> >> > to the Newcastle. Except the representatives of the VSM 
> community 
> >> > and Anatoly there must be some from the Oracle UK as well !!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Leonid Ototsky - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
> >> >
> >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >> >
> >> > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment 
> (MCWE) go to:
> >> > www.platformforchange.org
> >> >
> >> > METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> >> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >> >
> >> > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> >> > http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For 
> >> more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum 
> >> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> >> www.platformforchange.org
> >>  METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> >> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >>  Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> >> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> >>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> >
> > For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
> > www.platformforchange.org
> >
> > METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> > https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> >
> > Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> > http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> 
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) 
> go to:  www.platformforchange.org
> 
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - 
> https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
> 
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - 
> http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 

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