LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for CELTIC-L Archives


CELTIC-L Archives

CELTIC-L Archives


CELTIC-L@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

CELTIC-L Home

CELTIC-L Home

CELTIC-L  March 2008

CELTIC-L March 2008

Subject:

Re: More on Celtic A & B

From:

John Hooker <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Wed, 26 Mar 2008 14:12:05 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (95 lines)

Hi Fhiona,

The key here is the validity of the approach given in the Forster and Toth 
paper which places the emergence of the various Celtic language branches at 
3200 B.C. +/- 1500 years. The previously accepted earliest date is 1200 B.C. 
Forster and Toth adapted techniques used in genetics and applied these 
techniques to language. Most linguists are apparently skeptical of the Forster 
and Toth study.

In the case of Maeshowe, the date in question is circa 3,000 B.C. and is thus 
far too early for Stonehenge to have any bearing on the problem whatsoever. 
Maeshowe appears to show alignments that reveal the later, Irish, calendrical 
dates for Imbolc etc. which, previously have been given to Celtic period 
Ireland and are popularly considered to be Celtic festivals. However, the only 
continental Celtic calendar is from Coligny in eastern France and this calendar 
places the most importance on the lunar aspects, although it reconciles lunar 
with solar time. Pliny NH. 16.95 says:

"The mistletoe, however, is but rarely found upon the robur; and when found, 
is gathered with rites replete with religious awe. This is done more particularly 
on the sixth day of the moon, the day which is the beginning of their months 
and years, as also of their ages, which, with them, are but thirty years. This 
day they select because the moon, though not yet in the middle of her 
course, has already considerable power and influence; and they call her by a 
name which signifies, in their language, the all-healing".

Which confirms the importance placed on a lunar calendar by the Celts.


In my own study, I noted that the Armorican La Tène style -- which is 
peculiar to coinage involved two roots: the first which strongly involves a 
derivation of the split-palmette has a genesis in Rhineland Palatinate/Saarland, 
and in particular, a focus on Weisskirchen. I used only exact parallels from 
Jacobsthal's corpus. Another Armorican motif, the human-headed horse, has a 
focus on the Trier area in Rhineland Palatinate, the state being east and north 
of Saarland. The coin evidence shows a migration of peoples from the Trier 
area into eastern Armorica where they were known as the Aulerci Cenomani, 
and that these coins were the earliest of a number of tribal issues which 
stretch westwards to encompass the Armorican massif and are stylistically 
linked.

The second stylistic influence on Armorican coins comes from megalithic 
Ireland and these elements are mostly focused in western Armorica. These 
elements do not show up on the coins of the Aulerci Cenomani and other 
tribes from eastern Armorica, but are particularly noticeable on the coins of 
the Coriosolites from Côtes-d'Armor.

That there is some prior connection between Ireland and the general Rhineland 
area is evidenced by the nature of Irish gold artefacts which all belong to a 
group of gold metals marked by platinum inclusions which do not exist in Britain 
or in Gaul, but have been detected in the coins of the central European Boii, 
and in gold deposits in the Rhineland. The other locality for gold with platinum 
inclusions is Asia Minor. A possible Celtic source of platinum inclusion gold is 
the treasury of Delphi which contained large amounts of coin dedicated there 
by Kroesus of Lydia.

There is a report that the composition of the goldwork at Waldalgesheim in 
Rhineland Palatinate is from melted Persian darics, the metal for which would 
also come from Lydia and have such platinum inclusions. Furthermore, one of 
the chariot parts from Waldgallscheid in the Rhineland (Jacobsthal No. 153) is 
made from ash with maple pegs, which is paralleled by another chariot part 
from Ireland (maple was not native).

Despite these material connections between Ireland and the Rhineland, the
iconographic link between megalithic Ireland and the Rhineland appears not to 
exist at all, and while Coligny is further south (being close to Switzerland), 
there appears to be no link between that and the Maeshowe/Irish calendar 
provision for Imbolc.

That such iconographic links exists only at the fusion of the Saar/Rhineland 
with the western Armorican supports the idea that there was no direct 
iconographic link between the Rhine and Megalithic Ireland/Orkney and that 
the links between the Rhineland and Ireland were material rather than 
cosmological and of a much later date.

This leads me to believe that the alignments to Imbolc etc. at Maeshowe in 
Orkney are part of a Neolithic cosmology that was adapted by the Celts of the 
Atlantic, but was not part of a greater Celtic cosmology further east than the 
Armorican massif in Gaul.

Coming again to the Forster and Toth paper, if their estimates of an insular 
split in Celtic languages as early as 3200 B.C. is correct, then Imbolc could be 
stated to be perhaps a Celtic A development, albeit a localized one. If the 
traditional view is maintained that the Celts grew out of the Urnfield cultures 
of central Europe no earlier than 1200 B.C., then Imbolc was adapted by Celtic 
A peoples from an earlier northwestern Neolithic cosmology, but was never 
adapted by Celtic B peoples outside of western Armorica where the only fusion 
of Neolithic and Celtic iconography took place.

Cheers,

John

You can unsubscribe yourself by logging in on the list archives page at https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A0=CELTIC-L&X=36DAE1476AF514EF73, selecting the 'join or leave Celtic-L' link and going through the unsubscription routine there.

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

January 2019
December 2018
September 2018
March 2018
January 2018
December 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
November 2016
August 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
March 2015
February 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
February 2014
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997
September 1997
August 1997
July 1997
June 1997
May 1997
April 1997
March 1997
February 1997
January 1997
December 1996
November 1996
October 1996
September 1996
August 1996
July 1996
June 1996
May 1996
April 1996
March 1996
February 1996
January 1996
December 1995
November 1995
October 1995
September 1995
August 1995
July 1995
June 1995
May 1995
April 1995
March 1995
February 1995
January 1995
December 1994
November 1994
October 1994
September 1994
August 1994
July 1994
June 1994
May 1994
April 1994
March 1994
February 1994
January 1994
December 1993
November 1993
October 1993
September 1993
August 1993
July 1993
June 1993
May 1993
April 1993
March 1993
February 1993
January 1993
December 1992
November 1992
October 1992
September 1992
August 1992
July 1992
June 1992
May 1992
April 1992
March 1992
February 1992
January 1992
December 1991
November 1991
October 1991
September 1991
August 1991
July 1991
June 1991
May 1991

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager