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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  February 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER February 2008

Subject:

Re: Saving the world - a bit!

From:

Angela Espinosa <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 17 Feb 2008 10:54:51 -0000

Content-Type:

multipart/mixed

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (303 lines) , text/plain (14 lines)

Boris:
I also absolute agree so we are now a growing majority (3!!)
Angela



-----Original Message-----
From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer on behalf of Boris G Freesman, Q.C.
Sent: Sat 2/16/2008 19:47
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Saving the world - a bit!
 
I guess that makes us a majority of 2!!!

Boris

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Roger Harnden 
  To: [log in to unmask] 
  Sent: Thursday, February 14, 2008 4:32 AM
  Subject: Re: Saving the world - a bit!


  absolutely agree,


  Roger

  On 13 Feb 2008, at 21:28, Boris G Freesman, Q.C. wrote:


    Not me! Exclude me in; include me out!

    I DO want to save the world... because the prospects of leaving this mess as a legacy to my children and grandchildren chills my Soul.
    The problem is that I don't know how... and even if I did, I doubt it is a task that can be accomplished by one person, all alone. I may a foolish, optimistic dreamer, but I am not the Second Coming...

    But, thanks to Stafford, I do know how to CHANGE the world, both "outside, there" and "inside, here." I sum up Stafford's legacy in his own words: a platform for change. And I trust - as he did - that a changed world will know how to save itself.

    And to clarify some previous statements I have made, the way I see it the VSM and Team Syntegrity speak to those changes that must take place "outside, there." Prang speaks to the changes required "inside, here."

    Boris




      ----- Original Message -----
      From: ROD THOMAS
      To: [log in to unmask]
      Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2008 2:34 PM
      Subject: Re: Saving the world - a bit!


      Dear Allenna,

      Yes, saving the world  a bit or more is attractive - but the point is 'what bit'? What operation can a syntegration inform?
      How many recursions are there to the the total planetary system? Is this the biggest set of variety equations anyone has ever set out to contemplate? What's that old saying: think globally, act locally. Doesn't this equate to the maxim: its too big to influence it all but you can always decide not to catch so many planes.

      Anyway, I,m repeating myself on this one so I'll sign off - see comments elsewhere if of interest.

      Regards
      Rod

      allenna leonard <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
        Dear Rossell et al,

        Your point about conflicting weather data illustrates
        the need for a cybernetics/systems approach to
        understanding climate change. What we are looking at
        is a potential massive change in climate that is
        likely to have different effects than expected and to
        have differing local impacts. What we are looking at
        is incipient instability: both envorionmental and
        social.

        Saving the world - a little bit or more - is a more
        attractive alternative than its negative. It has only
        been since WWII that human beings have had to confront
        the possibility that we could damage the earth -
        through nucelar war or environmental catastrophe where
        humanity would not be a viable proposition. Always
        before, no matter how brutal a regime, its time would
        go as it had come. That is something that takes a bit
        of accomodation.

        Best,
        Allenna


        --- R Clemens wrote:

        > There is a Time message from 1974:
        >
        http://amazing.deter.com/content/Politics/Time%20-%20Another%20Ice%20Age.pdf
        > 
        > For me, the language used in this article is the
        > interesting point - e.g., "Climatological Cassandras
        > are becoming increasingly apprehensive, for the
        > weather aberrations they are studying may be the
        > harbinger of another ice age." 
        > 
        > And then we can take recent work by Dr Toby
        > Tyrrell of the University of Southampton's School of
        > Ocean and Earth Science
        >
        (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/08/070829193436.htm)
        > that might suggest some future utility for having
        > huge C02 banks via geo-sequestration should it get a
        > bit chilly.
        > 
        > I tried to point his new data out to 'policy'
        > people in a work context late last year - but alas
        > the career benefits of the new Climate Change agenda
        > seemed to have taken over and I was advised that
        > "the government" was taking climate change seriously
        > and that my observations were not in conformance
        > with this new career enhancing dogma. 
        > 
        > My argument was not for or against climate change
        > - rather the need for futures thinking to take in
        > many environmental information sources. 
        > 
        > And then we have global dimming - all very
        > complex. 
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > And I enjoyed the observations about 'deliverance':
        > yes, very powerful stuff those needs. 
        > Russell 
        > 
        > "Wright, Steve" wrote: 
        > Dear Rod,
        > 
        > I think your comment cuts to the chase. To think we
        > can save the world is a bit like the cork on the
        > pacific ocean demanding order, order. But neither
        > can we wash our hands of the whole car crash in
        > motion, tempting though that might be. Most of us
        > are not visionaries and even Stafford knew when it
        > was time to head for the bar. Nevertheless we have
        > some insight into what might make a difference in
        > process terms.
        > 
        > I think you are right when you say taking on the
        > whole burden is too much but it would be wrong even
        > in the systems vocabulary shared by the group. I
        > think it is a bit like attempting to understand the
        > holocaust in one leap, it is too much and can lead
        > to psychic numbing and I feel sure that is why so
        > many teens are now are finding their illusions in
        > cyberdelic dungeons. What we might aspire to is to
        > recognise the moments when a tipping point for the
        > better may emerge and then catalyse that change and
        > go for the roll. We've experienced some of the
        > energy with this thread which has released an
        > enjoyable amount of intellect, enthusiasm and
        > passion. Maybe it is part of the getting to know and
        > trust each other a bit more so that when it gets
        > really difficult we might be able to network more
        > effectively and see some of the stepping stones
        > across the transition. Prophets are always
        > troublesome but I think it is encouraging that we
        > seem to share a positive vision of the future
        > that seems worth collectively doing something about
        > even if eventually (to mangle AJ Muste), it is more
        > by life than by words.
        > 
        > Steve
        > 
        > 
        > 
        > ---------------------------------
        > From: ROD THOMAS
        > Sent: Mon 11/02/2008 21:58
        > To: [log in to unmask]
        > Subject: Re: System failure
        > 
        > 
        > Dear Angela,
        > 
        > Thanks for the detailed reply, I can appreciate the
        > reasoning behind the decision to hold the
        > syntegration in Sweden on this subject.
        > 
        > My only observation relates to the view - you refer
        > to Steve and Russell's recent messages - that we
        > have some kind of special role or responsibility in
        > being the mid-wife to what you call 'massive social
        > change'. I would caution against any view that it is
        > in some sense our responsibility to change, or for
        > want of a better expression, 'save the world'. I
        > think this view continually appears in contributions
        > to this list server. In my mind this places too
        > great a burden and too big an expectation on those
        > who have an interest in management cybernetics - I
        > thinlk that the likely outcome is psychological
        > damage if not despair. Indeed, some might argue that
        > it is a variation on the ancient theory (or
        > prophecy?) of deliverance and / or destiny : either
        > by messiahs, chosen people, tribes, social classes
        > etc. A view that throughtout history has manifested
        > itself in various guises.... always with the same
        > outcome: trouble.
        > 
        > I have a feeling that this issue has arisen before
        > on this discussion board because I have already
        > recounted the story that when I asked Stafford about
        > PLATFORM FOR CHANGE (in about 2000?), he replied
        > that during the 1970s he had made the mistake of
        > thinking that it was his reponsibility to save /
        > change the world. He said that he had been much
        > happier since re-evaluating the prospects of this.
        > He said he was unbelievably happy.
        > 
        > 'Is it my round?' was his next question, and we
        > stayed up late enjoying the time that we had in
        > proximity to a bar that was open.
        > 
        > Rod
        > 
        > 
        > 
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      ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to:www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to:www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



***************************************************************************************** To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://www.hull.ac.uk/legal/email_disclaimer.html ***************************************************************************************** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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