LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER  February 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER February 2008

Subject:

Re: System failure

From:

Angela Espinosa <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 11 Feb 2008 16:16:52 -0000

Content-Type:

multipart/mixed

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (123 lines) , text/plain (14 lines)

Rod (and others)
I do appreciate your original question about the next Syntegration in Sweden and consider we must respond it clearly if we want to go ahead with it. To give you a brief reaction on my side; we agreed on the decision to make the next event as a Syntegration as a suggestion from participants at the final session on the last Conference in Saint Gallen. The opening question was suggested at the Steering Committee last November in London -and I liked and supported the idea-; we choose Sweden as we had received a kind invitation from Professor Stig Holmberg to do it in Sweden. He has had previous experiences organising Syntegrations and has been working recently in using them as a mechanism for local governance. It seemed to us that by focusing in this particular application of Stafford's work we'd be able to encompass the interests/ wisdom from a wide variety of both researchers and practitioners as the topic affects us all one way or another and we believe cybernetics' contributions to sustainability still have not been well discussed or known. The steering committee was happier with the idea of 'developing the Metaphorum community internationally -after the succeess of the St Gallen's one. We had close to 50 participants; only 30% of them were British; the rest of them came from other European countries and from Canada, Australia and Latin America. Given this composition of the membership last year,  the difference between making this year event in the UK or in Sweden -from a sustainability point of view- won't make much more difference. But the decision to fly or not is clearly relevant to the topic of sustainability and to our personal 'actions', so it's worth the debate.
As decisions have been made already and we're launching the formal invitation and details of costs and logistics in few days time, we'll wait and hear the reactions from the majority of members and then we'll see where to go from there.
Regarding the meaning of talking about sustainability and cybernetics, I do support what Russell, Roger and Steve have already argued. On my personal view, I have felt passionate about the possibilities to re-understand the ideas of 'sustainable development' that we use and have felt that the language offered by the VSM and the tools Stafford suggested -as the VSM and Syntegration-  have important potential impacts in producing massive social change. I do agree with Steve that even if the topic seems too big -global change- unless we find useful mechanisms 'that work in practice' to revert the trends, the possibilities we have to leave some hope for the next generations are minimal.
 I know of situations where people inspired by 'cybernetically sound' organisational and governance schemes have managed to produce important changes at least at a local level. More than favouring 'unsustainable' conversations about sustainability, I'd expect this event may contribute to share and make more precise the sort of actions/ projects that we or others may lead to contribute to advance in the desirable direction of change both locally and globally. At the global level, for instance there is a clear gap in the structures in place to represent people's views on massive decisions affecting all countries (i.e. energy use).
As Russell has explained before, I consider that the topic on sustainability -understood in a broad sense- could be a very clear application on how innovative mechanisms for governance could be developed, and even on how major societal risks could be addressed -as the conversation leaded by Arthur has shown us all before-  or as Steve says, how the non sustainable futures we're creating could be revealed and contrasted.
I feel quite optimistic we can contribute to create consciousness on which the major issues are and where decisions are being made - as opposite on where/how they could be made from a more cybernetically sound criteria...
Angela E




-----Original Message-----
From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer on behalf of Wright, Steve
Sent: Mon 2/11/2008 13:10
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: System failure
 
It is quite posible that the younger generation are aware that they will
have to put into place any remnants of wisdom that might enable them to
sustain! In all of this, we in Metaphorum are presumambly aiming to
create values and systems for a brighter time. The young are pretty
media savvy - they can smell a crunch is coming but only have decision
making facilities within their circle. The crazy nation states systems
are beyond them and most of us..
 
And perhasp in this sense we should be focussed. Most of our sustainable
and survivor systems are about protecting the unsustainable and cannot
gurantee the safety of the many. Most of my work is about the
militarisation of sustaining the unviable  and the horror show that
accompanies it. History tells us that when habitats diminish most
cultures do not die peacefully, they raid!
 
Kids today might inhabit a variant of Brave New World but the movies
warn them 1984 is a reality for the majority and it may just be around
the corner for them. What Metaphorum has done for me is advise me just
how complicated big systems are - and how some of the solutions might
not be so obvious. For example on ecological viability, perhaps my
"deepest green" friend said recently: "Give me an SUV driving vegetarian
anyday over a meat eacting cyclist since the SUV vegetarian generates
less greehosue gases!" I think if we surveyed the next generation we
would find they are expecting to die violently in some future war and
there is some hostility to previous generations that they used
everything up...But they are very aware of the screwed up nature of
policy making and politics so why get involved in trying to change "big
systems"? And yet count how many are now involved in charity or
volunteering...it is small scale and "real". The struggle to avert
global catastrophe isnt over and yet it seems too big...One challenge of
the next generation of "systems designers" is scaling things down so
that more become involved. 
 
Climate change is of course already wreaking collossal damage and we're
getting news of its day to day devastating human impact only slowly. But
if we get to consume it via a series of sudden tipping points then it
will be young people who have to endure the winnowing process of crude
Dawinian logic which ensues. What should we be saying to that generation
in ways which are clear enough and inspirational enough to persaude them
to know how to build viable systems as if people mattered? i think most
of all we need success stories - a sort of solutions based therapy..but
if all of us fail then the kids will be the consumers of that failure or
the target of the feral forces that gobble up and recycle failure.

Steve

	-----Original Message-----
	From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of R Clemens
	Sent: 11 February 2008 12:04
	To: [log in to unmask]
	Subject: Re: System failure
	
	
	Yes, if my precocious comments can perhaps be tolerated once
more: you (collectively) ARE them.  But I fear that today's younger
generation of potential 'followers' see nothing and hear nothing -- not
because they are blind or deaf -- rather perhaps so little is detectable
by them, through the noise, that the current batch of potential
"characters & beacons" are (for them) the 'silent generation'.
Communications is essential but it is not about modems and
telecommunications, it is about marketing in the market place.  It's
about dialogue on 'wicked problems' -- but that is another infiltration
of sustainability into the wrong "Subject:" area.  From what I can see,
today's heroes are not in economics or engineering -- rather they are
seen in those areas focused on ecological viability. 
	
	Russell
	
	

				

				

				

				 



To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



***************************************************************************************** To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://www.hull.ac.uk/legal/email_disclaimer.html ***************************************************************************************** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

September 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
August 2017
May 2017
November 2016
October 2016
July 2016
June 2016
March 2016
November 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager