LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER  February 2008

UCD-STAFFORDBEER February 2008

Subject:

Re: Designing Freedom

From:

Roger Harnden <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sun, 24 Feb 2008 14:34:51 +0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (386 lines)

A great reference


Roger
On 24 Feb 2008, at 14:12, Nick Green wrote:

> From a recent Ranulph Glanville (see below) posting to CYBCOM
>
> http://grace.evergreen.edu/%7Earunc/texts/readings.htm
>
> On that page are a number of papers and scanned books including  
> "Designing Freedom" and "Fanfare for Effective Freedom". Works by  
> von Foerster, Ashby, Maturana, Bateson and some classic papers from  
> Wiener (on Teleology), Shannon and Weaver. A bit of gold mine really.
>
>
> Best
> N.
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ranulph Glanville" <[log in to unmask] 
> >
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2008 11:52 PM
> Subject: Reading list and Studying Cybernetics
>
>
>> Someone was trying to access Arun Chandra's reading list. Here's a
>> url that gives access and requires no password:
>>
>> http://grace.evergreen.edu/%7Earunc/texts/readings.htm
>>
>> You can download individual papers, or packages that contain
>> collections.
>>
>> By the way, wouldn't it be helpful if, when a thread changes, we
>> changed the subject entry? Recent discussions of copyright are hardly
>> "Studying Cybernetics" and if we want to scan through messages to
>> find some content, having appropriate subjects is helpful. Just an  
>> idea.
>>
>> Ranulph
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 22 Feb 2008, at 19:57, Klaus Krippendorff wrote:
>>
>>> Randall is basically right. To republish individual articles  
>>> requires
>>> permissions of the copyright owner.  The problem is that it is
>>> difficult
>>> to find out who that is.  The author is only the last resort.  30
>>> years
>>> after publication the author can acquire the copyrights from the
>>> publisher (at no cost) but if s/he doesn't  request that, it stays
>>> with
>>> the publisher.
>>>
>>> The same applies to republishing a whole book.  If 30 years have
>>> elapsed
>>> since publication of roger conant's collection of ashby's papers he
>>> has
>>> to make an effort.  If he doesn't intersystems or its successor  
>>> keeps
>>> the copyrights.
>>>
>>> Because this can be very tedious, we used the copyright clearing  
>>> house
>>> (or center?) to do the work and then approach the publisher for a
>>> reduction of the costs.  It may well be that no publisher claims the
>>> copyright in which case it automatically reverts to the author.  I  
>>> had
>>> one case where the copyright agency found that out (for free).
>>>
>>> klaus
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Cybernetics Discussion Group [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On
>>> Behalf Of Kevin Kreitman
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 8:30 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Studying Cybernetics
>>>
>>> I'll take a shot at it...Let's talk.
>>> k
>>> On Feb 21, 2008, at 5:01 PM, Stuart Umpleby wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi, Kevin, Yes, correct.  It might be one just needs to fashion a
>>>> persuasive letter requesting a lower rate.  That is where I got
>>>> stuck.
>>>> I was not sure what arguments to make.  "We are poor,"  didn't  
>>>> sound
>>>> quite right.  We need someone with a bit of hutzpah (sp?).  Best,
>>>> Stuart
>>>>
>>>> On 2/21/08, Kevin Kreitman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Stuart--
>>>>>
>>>>> So, since Mechanisms of Intelligence was a collection of articles
>>>>> and
>>>>> papers, you were trying to get releases from each publisher of  
>>>>> each
>>>>> paper?  Actually, that opens another interesting possibility--
>>>>> reprinting the articles that we can get clearance for under a
>>>>> separate
>>>>> title.  And if there are one or two that are too expensive or
>>>>> difficult, we can just drop them, or supply a link/reference to  
>>>>> the
>>>>> source, who can make the articles available (or not) under their  
>>>>> own
>>>>> terms.  Is that about right?
>>>>> k
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 21, 2008, at 4:40 PM, Stuart Umpleby wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Kevin,  Several years ago I was working on reprinting  
>>>>>> Mechanisms of
>>>>>> Intelligence through World Scientific in Singapore.  I was
>>>>>> gathering
>>>>>> permissions to reprint but hit a barrier with a very high charge
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> Nature.  I then went on sabbatical and have yet to return to the
>>>>>> task.
>>>>>> I would welcome someone continuing this effort.  An on-line  
>>>>>> version
>>>>>> would be ideal.  I do not know how an on-line permission differs
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> publication permission.  Best regards, Stuart
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2/20/08, Kevin Kreitman <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>> Thanks. :-)  I can't find Mechanisms of Intelligence either,  
>>>>>>> but I
>>>>>>> have a copy of it from about 20 years ago.  At one point, when  
>>>>>>> An
>>>>>>> Introduction to Cybernetics was out of print and impossible to
>>>>>>> get, I
>>>>>>> contacted Ashby's estate and got permission to photocopy for my
>>>>>>> students.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't know whether the copyright is held by Ashby's estate, or
>>>>>>> Roger
>>>>>>> Conant (whom I believe was the editor), but we might consider
>>>>>>> contacting the holder of the copyright to see if we might
>>>>>>> reproduce
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> electronically or make copies for academic use...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> k
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Feb 20, 2008, at 2:25 PM, Joshua Madara wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello, Kevin,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I like your ECCO stuff; thank you for that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Re. your recommendations, I either own or have access to all of
>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>> books and articles except _Mechanisms of Intelligence_, which I
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> been
>>>>>>>> trying to acquire for some time now, with no joy. If anyone  
>>>>>>>> here
>>>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> any
>>>>>>>> leads on an available copy, I would be most grateful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Joshua
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here is my contribution to those of you who might be  
>>>>>>>>> interested.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> When I teach, the way I trace the path from first-order
>>>>>>>>> cybernetics
>>>>>>>>> (the cybernetics of observed systems) to second-order
>>>>>>>>> cybernetics
>>>>>>>>> (the
>>>>>>>>> cybernetics of observing systems) is by starting with the
>>>>>>>>> work of
>>>>>>>>> McCullough and Pitts early work on the logical structure of
>>>>>>>>> neural
>>>>>>>>> nets in perception (and later the paper co-authored by  
>>>>>>>>> Humberto
>>>>>>>>> Maturana, then their student) on "What the Frog's Eye Tells  
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Frog's
>>>>>>>>> Brain."  That is, in the visual cortex of the frog, the neural
>>>>>>>>> network
>>>>>>>>> functions as a "motion detector" or an "edge detector", and  
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> information is what is passed up the chain, neurologically
>>>>>>>>> speaking--
>>>>>>>>> not a "picture" of whatever the critter is looking at.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Heinz von Foerster, the father of "second-order cybernetics"
>>>>>>>>> started
>>>>>>>>> looking at what was really happening in the brain that  
>>>>>>>>> resulted
>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>> things like what we call "memory" and published an early
>>>>>>>>> paper on
>>>>>>>>> "memory without record"--in answer to the question, how can we
>>>>>>>>> remember something (i.e. have the experience we call
>>>>>>>>> "remembering"
>>>>>>>>> unless the elements of the memory are somehow stored in
>>>>>>>>> particular
>>>>>>>>> locations (which they are not)?  And closely following that
>>>>>>>>> line of
>>>>>>>>> thought, how can we "know" some external world if all that  
>>>>>>>>> gets
>>>>>>>>> transmitted (or Maturana would say "triggered") are neural
>>>>>>>>> impulses
>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> a fixed amplitude and variable frequency.  And how do we
>>>>>>>>> (biologically) construct our experience from these inputs-- 
>>>>>>>>> since
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> is biologically partially fixed and partially plastic is the
>>>>>>>>> neural
>>>>>>>>> connections that are either inhibitory or excitatory?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm happy to share my list of papers/books you can use for
>>>>>>>>> reading to
>>>>>>>>> get the short version of the path from first order cybernetics
>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>> second-order cybernetics--then spun off by Maturana in some
>>>>>>>>> profound
>>>>>>>>> ways, which (last I heard) he doesn't quite regard as
>>>>>>>>> cybernetics.
>>>>>>>>> This is not an exhaustive list, or point of view--but it's the
>>>>>>>>> foundation that I've used as a basis for my journey in
>>>>>>>>> cybernetics
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> complex systems.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The books I work from most in first-order cybernetics are W.
>>>>>>>>> Ross
>>>>>>>>> Ashby's:  Design for a Brain, An Introduction to Cybernetics.
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> Mechanisms of Intelligence.  I believe An Introduction to
>>>>>>>>> Cybernetics
>>>>>>>>> is available electronically here: http://pcp.lanl.gov/
>>>>>>>>> ASHBBOOK.html.
>>>>>>>>> Design for a Brain and Mechanisms of Intelligence are out of
>>>>>>>>> print,
>>>>>>>>> but also may be available used or thru Amazon.  Ashby is
>>>>>>>>> credited
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> one of the early thinkers in complex systems, and systems
>>>>>>>>> science
>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>> well...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Modern Systems Research for the Behavioral Scientist, Walter
>>>>>>>>> Buckley,
>>>>>>>>> ed. Aldine Publishing Company, Chicago, copyright 1968.  ISBN:
>>>>>>>>> 0-202-30011-0
>>>>>>>>> It's out of print, but I've had luck getting copies from used
>>>>>>>>> bookstores, perhaps Powell's in Portland OR.    You could  
>>>>>>>>> start
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>> Amazon.com...  The following articles in that volume may be of
>>>>>>>>> particular interest:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Norbert Wiener:  Cybernetics in History
>>>>>>>>> McCullough and Pitts:   A Logical Calculus of the Ideas
>>>>>>>>> Immanent in
>>>>>>>>> Nervous Activity
>>>>>>>>> W. Ross Ashby:  Principles of the Self Organizing System;
>>>>>>>>> Regulation
>>>>>>>>> and Control;  and Variety, Constraint and the Law of Requisite
>>>>>>>>> Variety
>>>>>>>>> (excerpted from An Introduction to Cybernetics)
>>>>>>>>> Heinz von Foerster: From Stimulus to Symbol: The Economy of
>>>>>>>>> Biological
>>>>>>>>> Computation
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are a number of other articles which may be of  
>>>>>>>>> interest as
>>>>>>>>> well
>>>>>>>>> from that volume, having to do with adaptation of biological
>>>>>>>>> systems,
>>>>>>>>> and an article by Garrett Hardin:  The Cyberetics of
>>>>>>>>> Competition: a
>>>>>>>>> Biologist's View of Society.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Heinz von Foerster's work is best captured in his book
>>>>>>>>> "Understanding
>>>>>>>>> Understanding" which captures the fundamental biological and
>>>>>>>>> neurological foundations of second-order cybernetics from his
>>>>>>>>> work.
>>>>>>>>> This is still in print, I believe, and is a collection of his
>>>>>>>>> articles, published a few years ago.   Understanding
>>>>>>>>> Understanding:
>>>>>>>>> Essays on Cybernetics and Cognition, Heinz von Foerster,
>>>>>>>>> Springer-
>>>>>>>>> Verlag, New York, 2003.  ISBN 0-387-95392-2
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is a wonderful book IMHO, and contains both technical and
>>>>>>>>> mathematical materials, and social interpretations.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is another book that Heinz and his students created in
>>>>>>>>> 1969,
>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>> Cybernetics of Cybernetics, which includes student work and
>>>>>>>>> illustrations, as well as a number of excellent and seminal
>>>>>>>>> articles
>>>>>>>>> about self-organization and second-order cybernetics.  It
>>>>>>>>> contains
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> most (IMHO) readable early articles by Maturana, including:
>>>>>>>>> Neurophysiology of Cognition; and Cognitive Strategies.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Finally, the article "What the Frog's Eye tells the Frog's
>>>>>>>>> Brain"
>>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>> available online at: jerome.lettvin.info/lettvin/ Jerome/
>>>>>>>>> WhatTheFrogsEyeTellsTheFrogsBrain.pdf.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is far from exhaustive, but I believe it provides firm
>>>>>>>>> foundation
>>>>>>>>> that will help in understanding work that came after, and even
>>>>>>>>> (perhaps) provide insight into the excursions and  
>>>>>>>>> exploration of
>>>>>>>>> other
>>>>>>>>> cyberneticians of the time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would be happy to discuss this--probably off-list--with  
>>>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> is interested.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kevin Kreitman
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Stuart Umpleby, Research Program in Social and Organizational
>>>>>> Learning
>>>>>> 2033 K Street NW, Suite 230, The George Washington University,
>>>>>> Washington, DC 20052
>>>>>> www.gwu.edu/~umpleby, tel. 202-994-1642, fax 202-994-5284
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Stuart Umpleby, Research Program in Social and Organizational
>>>> Learning
>>>> 2033 K Street NW, Suite 230, The George Washington University,
>>>> Washington, DC 20052
>>>> www.gwu.edu/~umpleby, tel. 202-994-1642, fax 202-994-5284
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database:  
>> 269.20.9/1292 - Release Date: 21/02/2008 16:09
>>
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
>
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
>
> METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html
>
> Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org

For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

METAPHORUM eList Archive available at - https://listserv.heanet.ie/ucd-staffordbeer.html

Archive of CYBCOM eList available at - http://hermes.circ.gwu.edu/archives/cybcom.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

September 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
August 2017
May 2017
November 2016
October 2016
July 2016
June 2016
March 2016
November 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager