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CELTIC-L  February 2008

CELTIC-L February 2008

Subject:

Re: Vercingetorix

From:

vyvyan ogma wyverne <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Thu, 7 Feb 2008 11:16:14 +0930

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (161 lines)

Nothing, I just study - as an independent scholar, or you might say an
amateur.  I take university and language courses now and then, but follow my
own paths.

-----Original Message-----
From: CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of VICKI SHAW
Sent: Thursday, 7 February 2008 1:39 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Vercingetorix

It sure does, Vyvyan!  What do you teach?
Love Light Laughter
Vicki


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "vyvyan ogma wyverne" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: Vercingetorix


Of course, no one can say how Vercingetorix was pronounced and we only have
a Roman spelling of what would probably have been a Romanised pronunciation
of it.  Most attempts to arrive at a possible pronunciation for it assume
without justification that the Roman spelling reflects the real
pronunciation 'phonetically', such that V is U and can be pronounced either
as English V for Victor or U for Oops or W for Water; all vowels are pure
and exact even before R; R is pronounced even after a vowel and before a
consonant; G is hard unless followed by an E or an I; X is KS. Further, the
assumption is that it's from the old Gaulish language which was a Brythonic
one.

However, my studies of linguistic situations in Europe during the major
historical upheavals of medieval times and earlier as preserved for us in
manuscripts, monuments and other archaeological traces, and through
comparative studies of modern Celtic, Romance and Germanic languages,
although far from complete, are hinting that foreigners' names are often
wildly distorted in translation from their native forms.  A modern example
is Confucius/Kung Fu. An ancient one is Achilles/Apollo, Paris/Perseus,
Boudicca /Boadicea

Furthermore, as I demonstrated a few weeks ago, there is a lot more evidence
in Modern French of a very close association during a critical formative
stage of its evolution with Modern Irish (Gaeilge).  Galway et Gauloise sont
des mots qui vont tre\s bien ensemble...

So if the Latin V can be V or W, (as according to modern textbooks, it
could) and the C can be S or K if followed by an I or an E, and the G can be
Zh or J or G, and the X can be KS or CH  (as the Greek chi), you've got a
lot of freedom to guess, and it'll take a lot of patient work with all
possibilities to work it out.

How we interpret the name will affect what we make of it's pronunciation.
Currently, some scholars favour an interpretation of his name based on a
hypothetical verb cingeto- to march, but the evidence for cingeto- is
slight.

I'm exploring the possibility of a connection between Verkinge and Viking,
based on a pronunciation more like the two words "voe(r)king@ TOR@ch". (I'm
using @ for schwa, and it's a Celtic cchhh, which is sometimes almost
violently pronounced, I've noticed, even in modern Galway.) I've noticed
that in ancient literature almost all personal names either denote a school,
office, army or clan or other institution that someone belongs to, with
private names rarely used. Caesar means Chairman, Arthur means Father,
Solomon means Palace (of) the Mine/money.

"Voe(r)kinge" and Viking are close enough together to be variants of the
same word.  To my eye and ear, and within the contexts I'm working in, these
two words are variants of the English 'working' and my research indicates
that they may mean much the same.  The meaning of Viking, though not the
people denoted by it, have been forgotten. (But I'm finding interpretations
of difficult texts that depict them as seasonal ravagers of crops
unsustainable in comparison with interpretations that have them as seasonal
workers who, each year, after reaping the harvest in a similar way and
getting it in store, go to the King to be paid. After all, it's the mind
that translated berserk - see Du bezoeken, Danish besøge and German besuch,
both meaning visit - as rampant violence, without any justification and
despite evidence to the contrary, that accuses these innocent rustic
labourers of bloodfeuds and annual rampages of crazed slaughter. So I'm
thinking of peaceable farm-labourers who could fight in a war if called upon
to do so, not war-like, blood-thirsty, cut-throats.)

In my studies I see evidence for links between Celtic Torc and Turks (the
Helvetians Caesar fought against were originally from the Middle East and
may have been Turks). The Germans still refer to a proud, reckless youth as
a 'young Turk'. The link may have been towers, which were throughout Europe
and their presence is still reflected in place-names names like Tours,
London Tower, Teamhar and Tara, Turin, Turkey and dozens more. Turk and torc
are contractions of the ancestor they share with tower, teamhar tiwa(z) etc
+ a contraction of the ancestor of (Eng) -ic, (Ir) -(e)ach, (Fr) -ique,
(Eng) -ish, (Ger.) -ig, (Cornish) -ek, etc and maybe even -iks. It makes an
adjective of the noun (tower) and so tor+ix means towerish, where the -ish
has the same force as it has in the word Swedish. So does Turk, until the
Middle Ages.

vercinge = Vikings = working men; torx = tor(i)cs = turks. It is typical of
the literature of the age to refer to the leader by a name for the people he
represented to the recorders of the events they participated in.

I suppose it means the Vikings who were fighting for the Turks. Their word
for Turks, torcs, etc would have been based on their variant of the 'tower'
complex: Thor. So if a Viking said he was fighting/working for Thor, he'd
have meant for the Tower based regime that extended right across the known
world right into Asia and Africa. And if a Gaul learned it from a Viking, he
or she might Gaulicise it by adding the Gaulish form of the Irish -(e)ach.
Then the Romans would have spelt it their way - but some late and provincial
Latin spelling (which this would be) uses the Greek chi for foreign guttural
c's which do not occur in Latin.

A simple reason why the French now pronounce it with a soft g occurs to me -
if it is not a Gaulish word, but Viking or similar, it would have had no
existence for most Gauls of pre-Roman-Expansion France. So they've simply
applied their own traditional spelling conventions and hyper-corrected to
their soft g because the Romans, who weren't always consistent about things
like that, spelt it with an e after the g. Of course there are other
possible reasons.

Hope this interests you
vyvyan





-----Original Message-----
From: CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of VICKI SHAW
Sent: Wednesday, 6 February 2008 5:45 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Vercingetorix

Only slightly different from Kenneth, but still with that Breton sound.
Thanks, guys!

Love Light Laughter
Vicki
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2008 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: Vercingetorix


> At 7:51 PM -0800 2/4/08, VICKI SHAW wrote:
>>Why do the French pronounce the g in Vercingetorix as a soft g, but in
>>English the g is hard?
>>Vercingetorix was a Gaul, but a Celt, was he not?  Anyone have any idea
>>how the name might have been originally pronounced?
>
> Wer - king - ET - o - rix
>
> Bill
>
> -- 
> _____________________________
> Bill Blank
> http://kernunnos.com (Celtic studies and numismatics)
> OBOD's Message board: http://www.druidry.org/board/dhp/ 

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