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UCD-STAFFORDBEER  March 2007

UCD-STAFFORDBEER March 2007

Subject:

Re: Experimenting democracy and participation

From:

Angela Espinosa <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:02:29 +0100

Content-Type:

multipart/mixed

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (1 lines) , text/plain (10 lines)

Stefan:
I am in Hull today and I have been talking to Jennifer Wilby (Director od the Centre of Studies Systems) about your desire to do the PhD. We talked again with the Admissions Manager and it seems to be that there is a route through. I'll like to talk more to you about this. Would you give me a call anytime convenient for you? 07790-083759. pm 01723-354971. Tomorrow 01723 357260
Angela
 
ps/ I'm attaching my presentation in SG as well as the announcement for the scholarship on regeneration that I aanounced there, in case you want to double check what is about. Unfortunately, as I explained to you this project is set up on that topic so I couldn't use it for your own research. It means that we'll need to find out resources for your research.

	-----Original Message----- 
	From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer on behalf of Stefan Wasilewski 
	Sent: Thu 3/22/2007 20:06 
	To: [log in to unmask] 
	Cc: 
	Subject: Re: Experimenting democracy and participation
	
	
	Harold, could you be a little more clear on the subject because functional forms as elaborated in a simple rule base create self-organising maps similar to Wolfram's NKS maps. 

	Stefan
	
	On 22 Mar 2007, at 20:01, Garderen, Harold van wrote:


		Hi Susan, Paul and other,
		 
		Have you guys/girls ever heard of SOM (Self-organizing maps). These are generated in a kind of AI fashion and produce consensed 2D representations of large collections of data; for example documents. We have an expert in our firm who has been building such a tool from some years now, and could jumpstart the students to take the idea to the "listserv level". So if there is interest, let me know.
		 
		
		With kind regards,
		 
		Harold van Garderen | Océ-Technologies B.V.
		Postbus 101, 5900 MA Venlo | St. Urbanusweg 43 |
		T +31 (0) 77 359 2446 | M +31 (0) 6 532 94 325 | G 6258 |  [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>  |  www.oce.nl <http://www.oce.nl/>  
		 
		 


  _____  

			From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Stokes
			Sent: donderdag 22 maart 2007 18:06
			To: [log in to unmask]
			Subject: Re: Experimenting democracy and participation
			
			
			Susan,
			 
			I would be very keen to move ahead with this so if you could check out its feasibility at your end we can then working on it in a bit more depth.
			 
			Paul

  _____  

			From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Susan Jones
			Sent: 22 March 2007 14:52
			To: [log in to unmask]
			Subject: Re: Experimenting democracy and participation
			
			
			Hi Paul
			
			We have two undergraduate digital media programmes - one in multimedia computing and the other in multimedia games.  Each year students are required to do a project worth 40 credits - this is roughly one third of the work they do in their final year so it is an important part of these programme.  Staff are required to propose project ideas, both from their research, but also from contacts with external clients/sponsors etc. and these project ideas are vetted before going forward as proposals to students.  I think this could be quite a challenging project for an undergraduate student, particularly where there's an interest in linking visual features in interfaces with data structures/variables.  
			
			If you'd like me to put this forward as a proposal, I'll have a word with the programme leader to see what he thinks and if he thinks it is achievable [in the time that the students have] we can work up a proposal.
			
			Kind regards
			
			Susan
			
			
			
			
			
			Paul Stokes wrote:
			

				Susan,
				
				Forgive my enthusiasm, but that sounds like a wonderful idea!
				
				Now, how could we progress that?
				
				Paul 
				
				-----Original Message-----
				From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer
				[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Susan Jones
				Sent: 22 March 2007 00:27
				To: [log in to unmask]
				Subject: Re: Experimenting democracy and participation
				
				Hi Paul
				
				Following from your last comments, although conversations/discussions on
				this listserv can be intermittent, once they do start the volume of email,
				the length of the discussions and in some cases the 'heavy' 
				nature of the content is difficult for me to keep up with.  Bearing in mind
				that I get a lot of email through my job - and I know that pretty much
				everyone will be the same - I quickly give up trying to follow what's
				happening.  I then store the email locally - with the intention to read it
				when I have time - which of course never happens.  I can of course re-route
				this email, so that it goes into one place anyway, but this doesn't deal
				with the problem really.  Given that I want to understand more about
				cybernetics this gives me a problem, in that I want to be part of the list,
				but there is big gap between what I currently get out of it and the actual
				potential there is to learn - given the conversations that go on.
				
				I can't help thinking that this needs a more more visual and interactive
				approach to handle the 'variety' - for example, some kind of interactive
				interface developed in an application such as Flash which is easily
				delivered on the web.  The flash interface, could be designed to communicate
				areas of discussion using images/graphics of some kind which the user could
				then quickly drill down to relevant places where discussions are happening.
				New or ongoing conversations could simply be communicated via a link [via
				email] - but the link would automatically take users in the context that you
				described by Luc below - where participation and representation were handled
				visually first, but with access by some back-end database to relevant
				content. Discussions that have dried up could be progammed to archive off,
				such that the interface was only populated by live discussions and the whole
				system could be driven by simple administrative systems which members could
				use to add new issues and develop new visual objects which encapsulated the
				discussions. 
				
				A system like this would make it much easier for members to 'see' what was
				happening in terms of ongoing discussions at any one time and the interface
				could be colour coded to indicate levels of activity.
				
				I have no idea whether systems like this exist, but this would visualise
				what's happening rather than having a continuous stream of email that is
				unsorted. Such that 
				
				Just a thought!  We have digital media students who can program in Flash,
				work with applications such as Cold Fusion and who could probably come up
				with some kind of working prototype - could be a student project next year.
				
				Kind regards
				
				Susan
				
				
				
				Dr. Susan J. Jones
				Senior Lecturer in Digital Media
				School of Computing & Technology
				Digital Media Centre
				University of Sunderland
				SR6 0DD
				Tel:  +44 191 5153863
				Fax: +44 191 5153752
				
				
				
				----- Original Message -----
				From: Paul Stokes <[log in to unmask]> <mailto:[log in to unmask]> 
				Date: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 8:43 pm
				Subject: Re: Experimenting democracy and participation
				
				  

					As someone who is literally just catching up on some of these 
					conversations,I would like to very much voice my support fro Luc's 
					proposal.
					However I am not happy with what appears to be a resounding silence on 
					the part of the membership. The listserv seems to be an ideal medium 
					of dissemination but seems lacking in the ability to mobilise people 
					around a focal topic or task. In other words we seem to be lacking a 
					means of organizing around the virtual tasks that Luc has proposed.
					
					Any ideas, anyone?
					
					Paul
					
					-----Original Message-----
					From: Forum dedicated to the work of Stafford Beer 
					[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Luc Hoebeke
					Sent: 13 March 2007 08:53
					To: [log in to unmask]
					Subject: Experimenting democracy and participation
					
					Dear All,
					
					Referring to Vadian has trapped me in thinking more about the 
					initiative I proposed and which was responded to by some of you.
					
					One of the themes that came up during our last Metaphorum meeting and 
					which in fact has been a constant in all meetings is the relation 
					between cybernetics and politics and the governance of the "city".
					
					Why could it not be possible that we of the Metaphorum group don't 
					startourselves to experiment with the tension between participation 
					and representation that underlies democratic political activities?
					Naturally this leads me to think about the how? As nowadays the 
					tensionbetween participation and representation is mediated literally 
					by the electronic media, by the tension between the virtual and the 
					real,
					    

				the
				  

					experiment should also include the use of these media. The strength of 
					a syntegration is that it is done by real people in face to face 
					debates,discussions and dialogues.
					Syntegration sessions only can be partially "virtualized" when at 
					least the persons involved have had the experience of this live 
					encounter.
					But as one
					could look at the participants of the syntegration as representatives 
					of Statements of Importance, virtuality can be used to come to the 
					Statementsof Importance and their champions. Even the Topic Auction 
					can be done virtually.
					
					This as a background for the following proposal.
					
					Let us start with a Problem Jostle using the Servlist. We have a whole 
					year to come to qualitatively very high Statements of Importance. By 
					qualitatively high, I mean that through the effort that has been put 
					in their elaboration, their meaning and their relevance have been duly 
					developed between the Metaphorum members interested in it.
					
					The measurement of this quality could be made available
					    

				electronically
				  

					through a very simple "eudaemony" scale in which those who are 
					interested in the Statement of Importance indicate how high they value 
					their mutual contribution. The person who scores highest on this scale 
					becomes then the representative for that Statement of Importance and 
					shall be participatingin the live syntegration. A "real time" 
					follow-up could be made available on the Metaphorum website and 
					Enrique Rivas may think how to contribute to it virtually by means of 
					the work he is doing in Chile.
					
					The tension between participation and representation can then be 
					operationalized by having two Topic Auctions: a virtual one, let us 
					say about one month before the live syntegration by all the 
					metaphorumgroupmembers and a live one with the representatives, with 
					which the live syntegration could start. Naturally both will be 
					compared and the live one shall be influenced by the virtual one. In 
					this way some of the tensionbetween participation and representation 
					can be operationalized.
					Before the next Metaphorum meeting, the representatives can then start 
					the resonance sessions and come to the Outcome Resolves. I am 
					convinced that if the Statements of Importance are really represented 
					by their champions, they shall not bother to devote some time extra to 
					the syntegration.
					
					The next Metaphorum meeting could then have two main agenda points:
					reflecting on what has been learned doing this experiment developing 
					the Outcome Resolves.
					
					Please, take this proposal as a very tentative one. My Statement of 
					Importance is already at the beginning of this mail:
					
					what can Cybernetics contribute to the essential political tensions 
					between participation and representation and between virtual and real 
					in politics.
					I am curious to some of your reactions.
					
					Kind regards,
					
					Luc
					
					For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum 
					Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
					www.platformforchange.org
					For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum 
					Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
					www.platformforchange.org
					
					    

				For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
				For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
				www.platformforchange.org
				
				For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
				For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org
				  


			For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 



			For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 





		This message and attachment(s) are intended solely for use by the addressee and may contain information that is privileged, confidential or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the intended recipient or agent thereof responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by telephone and with a 'reply' message. Thank you for your co-operation. For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 





For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org 



***************************************************************************************** To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://www.hull.ac.uk/legal/email_disclaimer.html ***************************************************************************************** For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to: www.platformforchange.org

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