LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Archives


UCD-STAFFORDBEER@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER Home

UCD-STAFFORDBEER  December 2006

UCD-STAFFORDBEER December 2006

Subject:

Re: Metaforum Stafford's ideas

From:

Leonid Ototsky <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

leo <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 5 Dec 2006 22:31:10 +0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (444 lines)

Javier,
It is great to use the VSM foundation inside the Beer Community !
As a first step it will be good to list some activities at the S1-S5
levels.
As an example I have datamined one for the S4 .
Is somebody read "Peirce and Beer" paper ?
http://www.springerlink.com/content/7k58691503120714/
It is very interesting for me to get it !

Best,
Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it

  5  2006 ., 20:42:06:

> Dear Doug and ALL:

> Again, on applying the VSM ourselves, please add this to my previous
> proposal:

> The Beer Community you (Doug) mention, is all of us who want to make
> this work for everybody else.

> The Beer Community can organize as a viable system to do the job of
> disseminating Management Science and the VSM. ONE suggestion (there
> could be others):

> System One are those in charge of providing clear and concise  
> explanations, examples, etc. delivered in Keynote or Powerpoint  
> presentations, movies, whatever, for each one of the different pieces
> of the VSM model.
> System 2 are those members that will coordinate the "look and feel"
> of the presentations.
> System 3 is a board that keeps things going.
> System FOUR are developers of new ideas.
> System Five is all of us speaking freely about what is going on.

> I do not mind SHARING all the work I have done with all of you,  
> although some material must be translated back to english.

> 2. The other thing besides the VSM that we should try to provide are
> the protocols for discussing problems and solutions, much in the  
> manner of TEAM SYNTEGRITY. The difference, however should be to  
> provide differente OPTIONS to those needing to get together with  
> others to solve problems.

> 3. We should also begin making a list of software and internet  
> applications that are compatible or very usefull in relation to the
> VSM; USE some of those applications in our own discussions.

> 4. We should also have an ongoing list of the people that are  
> participating in this effort as a way to facilitate two-way  
> communications also.

> Thank you,

> Javier Livas




> On Dec 5, 2006, at 2:47 AM, Douglas McDavid wrote:

>> This is a very interesting discussion, and my name has been  
>> mentioned (Hi
>> Leonid!), so I thought I'd better say a few words before it gets cold.
>>
>> I agree with Javier that we need simplicity, and a compelling meme
>> that can
>> take off through the management world like a virus.  The most  
>> accessible
>> treatment of the VSM that I know is Barry Clemson's work, but his  
>> book is
>> hard to find, and VERY expensive, so that is not a very good memetic
>> vehicle.
>>
>> At the same time, I find that I can give the VSM basics in about 5
>> minutes,
>> with a white board or a piece of paper, and have done this many  
>> times with
>> colleagues over the years.
>>
>> Today, the most compelling medium I know is the virtual world  
>> called Second
>> Life (www.secondlife.com).  This has gotten a lot of press lately,
>> and IBM
>> has been well publicized for our CEO's announcement of a significant
>> investment in what we sometimes call the 3D Internet.  I was  
>> working on a
>> project in IBM Research called the Rehearsal Studio, and personally
>> investigated Second Life as a collaboration platform.  I was  
>> skeptical,
>> since I have never had the time or inclination to get involved in
>> computer-based games.  I was astonished to discover how engaging and
>> compelling this environment is for all kinds of communications,  
>> meetings,
>> and representations of information in 3-dimensional objects that can
>> provide information and behavior.
>>
>> I have mentioned this to a few people that I know through ISSS, and
>> I hope
>> to reach out further in that community.  I would suggest that some
>> people
>> from the Beer community might want to come into that world and take
>> a look.
>> I can show you around, and we can discuss how to bring the VSM to  
>> life in
>> this 3D world.  It is free to enter and participate, and very  
>> cheap, nearly
>> free, to establish a virtual presence there for a group of interested
>> people (represented by their avatars).
>>
>> Interesting?
>>
>>
>> Doug McDavidBusiness Architect
>> IBM Academy of Technology ( http://www-306.ibm.com/ibm/academy/ 
>> index.html )
>> [log in to unmask] (IBM tie-line: 457)
>> I'm Doug Mandelbrot in Second Life
>> ( http://slurl.com/secondlife/Yurim/96/102/31 )
>>
>>
>>
>>              Javier Livas
>>              <[log in to unmask]
>>               
>> COM>                                                       To
>>              Sent by: Forum            UCD- 
>> [log in to unmask]
>>              dedicated to  
>> the                                           cc
>>              work of Stafford
>>              Beer                                              
>> Subject
>>              <UCD-STAFFORDBEER         Re: [SPAM] Application of
>>              @LISTSERV.HEANET.         Stafford's ideas
>>              IE>
>>
>>
>>              12/04/2006 09:13
>>              PM
>>
>>
>>               Please respond
>>              toForum dedicated
>>               to the work of
>>                Stafford Beer
>>              <UCD-STAFFORDBEER
>>              @LISTSERV.HEANET.
>>                     IE>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Friends of Stafford Beer:Angela, Alfredo, Paul, Leonid:May I  
>> have your
>> attention for just a couple of minutes? Thank you.Proliferation of
>> variety
>> is our challenge. If we want to get Stafford
>> Beer's ideas in the mainstream we need some kind of structure in our
>> conversations...I think. We must use the VSM ourselves to guide our
>> activities and the communications amongst ourselves.Therefore may I
>> suggest
>> a few ideas for your consideration:
>>
>> 1. One of the things the VSM teaches is that SYSTEM ONE operations
>> generate products of some sort. What is the product we want? Perhaps
>> the product is "many Beerian thinkers all over the world". Since the
>> people are already there, what will make them different is a package
>> of ideas about cybernetics and the VSM, etc. residing in their heads.
>> We should make the VSM language an everyday thing or turn it into a
>> gigantic meme that spreads itself like a useful virus and takes
>> control of many people and institutions.The problem is that reading
>> THE
>> BRAIN OF THE FIRM and THE HEART OF
>> ENTERPRISE or even Designing Freedom is not an easy task. A lot of
>> people give up quickly. Stafford was well aware of this.The product
>> we must
>> work on is this designing this package of
>> materials that would make management Cybernetics easier to grasp.
>> Therefore we should agree on what it is that we think that those
>> interested in management cybernetics should know.I think that our job
>> should be to design this materials so they are
>> easier to learn and remember. Perhaps a series of movies using modern
>> platforms using lots of graphics and animations could do the job.
>>
>> 2. The VSM is the structure of an organization, but it is the
>> description of a process subject to the best possible form of control
>> too. The point is that we can USE the VSM to design the process
>> whereby we come up with the design of the package that we think will
>> train people in the use of the VSM. We can take different roles in
>> the VSM process to design the package. I know that the Designing The
>> System for Organizations, is an excercise in the use of the VSM, but
>> it cannot be used as an introduction to the subject.
>>
>> 3. As an example, allow to make a short list of the subjects that
>> would be part of a self-tought course in Management and VSM. I
>> repeat, this is just an example, although I have been working on some
>> of this myself:An Introduction ( What to expect from this course)
>> 1. History of Cybernetics ( WWII, Macy Foundation, etc. Two
>> Scientific Paradigms)
>> 2. The Cyberneticians ( Short Biographies and main ideas.)
>> 3. Management cybernetics concepts and Complex Adaptive Systems (CAS)
>> 4. Ashby's Law5. The VSM6. SYSTEM ONE Operations as processes7.  
>> SYSTEM TWO
>> Coordination8. SYSTEM THREE and THREE* Control and Audit9. Planning/
>> Policy10. Identity11. Real time control, statistical filters,  
>> production
>> mappings, etc.APPENDIX:Why things do not work right nowThe recursive
>> universeCybernetics and the New EconomyCybernetics and
>> GovernmentEtc.APPLICATIONS:Cybersyn and ChileMondragn  
>> CooperativeSoftware
>> designMapping a UniversityEtc.What has been done by several of our
>> colleagues is in my opinion
>> still too complex to be usefull to managers trained in the
>> reductionist tradition. I am aware that we should not fall into the
>> reductionist trap, but one thing it to walk nearby and the other is
>> walk so far away that almost nobody is using4. We should be able to
>> give
>> life to a lot of good examples of uses
>> of the VSM or it's different component parts. Some publishable case
>> studies must be prepared also.
>>
>> 5. If all this is the puzzle we want to solve, then we could start
>> exchanging ideas on the different parts of the puzzle until we agree
>> that we have solved the main issues and we can convey a clear idea of
>> what Management Science and the VSM can do to produce a better world.
>> We must find a way to say things in a simple and concise manner or we
>> will defeat our purpose.I would like to hear what you think of  
>> this. May I
>> offer a video link
>> through I-Chat, anybody? My address is at [log in to unmask]
>> you.Javier LivasOn Dec 4, 2006, at 10:12 AM, Leonid Ototsky wrote:>
>> Jon,>
>> Suppose for your "two challenges" "the Stafford Coommunity" must to>
>> cooperate closely with "the high tier" vendors.> One person from  
>> the IBM -
>> Doud McDavid - is a member of this mailing> list already. Another  
>> interest
>> is from the Oracle (see the> correspondence below). Suppose it will
>> be good
>> for the community to> activate these cooperations !
>>> > Best,> Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>> =================================================================>
>> ======================================================================
>> > OK,
>> Debra !
>>> BTW Suppose it could be interesting for the community to look at a
>>> new>
>> website around Stafford Beer (the Cybersyn project)
>>> > http://www.cybersyn.cl/html_cyber_ing/members.html
>>> http://www.cybersyn.cl/html_cyber_ing/opsroom.html
>>> http://www.cybersyn.cl/html_ing/archives.html.
>>> etc> The author of the Operations Room (Gui Bonsiepe) and Raul Espejo
>> (now> lives in the UK -
>>> http://www.syncho.com/pages/index.php?menu=s&mm=s&tex=s&sm=au )
>>> are my correspondents.> Suppose there is a good foundation "to  
>>> cooperate"
>> Oracle UK with the> UK "Stafford's community" - http:// 
>> www.metaphorum.org/.
>>> > Best,> Leonid - http://ototsky.mgn.ru/it
>>> >  ڧѧݧ 3 ֧ߧҧ 2006 ., 21:04:17:>>> As I
>>> saidon the last IOUC PDC
>> call, I have had an approach from>> Leonid Ototsky a Russian, whois an
>> advocate of Stafford Beer's work.>> He wonders if this is  
>> somethingOracle
>> may be interested in around>> Fusion.>>> Thanksto Floyd I have a  
>> better
>> understanding of this:>>> First,understand that most of Stafford  
>> Beer's
>> work (which is>> rooted in OperationsResearch), culminated in the
>> application of>> cybernetics to develop the ViableSystem Model  
>> ("VSM").
>> Loosely>> defined, cybernetics is the science of controlwhile  
>> management
>> is>> the professional of control. The VSM suggests that it  
>> ispossible for>>
>> systems to become self-sustaining within a particular>>  
>> environment,and for
>> those systems to evolve and adapt to internal>> changes in  
>> thatenvironment.
>> The IT concepts of adaptive and>> self-healing systems are  
>> closelyrelated
>> to the VSM. The idea is that>> the system can continuously  
>> collectfeedback
>> from the surrounding>> environment, recognize changes as they occur,
>> andsmoothly adapt to>> those changes in a smooth, controlled  
>> fashion rather
>> thanrequiring>> radical and disruptive change in the system or  
>> reinvention
>> of>> thesystem.>>> Is theira methodology SIG this could be part of?
>>> >> I have copied this to Leonid so he cansee we are pursuing his
>>>> interest.>>>>>> Debra Lilley>>> Director - IOUC Product
>> DevelopmentCommittee   Fusion Channel>
>> ======================================================================
>>> =====>>  ڧѧݧ 4 է֧ܧѧҧ 2006 ., 21:19:39:>>>
>>> Greetings to all of
>> you.>>> I am the author of the Reader's Guide to PLATFORM FOR CHANGE,
>> based>> on Allenna Leonard's recommendation to Stafford shortly  
>> before>>
>> Wiley's published the second edition.>>> I have been receiving this
>> thread
>> almost since its inception.  This>> is my first response.>>> I  
>> think that
>> we have two challenges, and most of the discussion up>> until now has
>> focused on one of them: how to improve the applications>> of the  
>> Viable
>> System Model so that we can sell it to the world that>> needs it so
>> desperately.  The other challenge is to build on the>> ideas as an
>> organization ourselves using Internet technology (email>> and web  
>> site) to
>> grow our communication so that we can create the>> world Stafford's
>> tools
>> have offered us.>>> The ideas are symbiotic, recursive, and I believe
>> reflexive.  We>> should focus some energy not so much on how to tweak
>> applications of>> VSM as how to build more effective information flow
>> amongst ourselves>> (fans of Stafford's many ideas and tools).>>>  
>> Mon, 27
>> Nov 2006, Angela Espinosa/Alfredo Moscardini/ Paul Stokes
>>>> wrote:>>> We are pleased to announce the forthcoming Metaphorum
>> Conference,
>>>>> to be held>>> in St. Gallen Business School on March 9th, 10th
>> 2007>>>>>> Unfortunately - again due to limitations on time and  
>> resources -
>>
>>>>> we cannot>>> employ the Syntegration protocol as we would have  
>>>>> liked.
>>>>> Nonetheless, we>>> will endeavour to provide an open space for  
>>>>> all to
>> present and
>>>>> discuss in a>>> democratic context.>>>>>> We have not forgotten
>>>>> either
>> our commitment to call for elections to>>> Metaphorum's  board and
>> will
>> inviting opinions from all members
>>>>> before>>> (those not attending) and during the event (those  
>>>>> attending),
>> who
>>>>> are>>> interested in making decisions at that level.>>>>>> We are
>> looking forward to receiving your expressions of interests
>>>>> - and>> ideas for papers - as soon as possible.>>>> I will not  
>>>>> be able
>> to attend the Metaphorum in March, but I encourage>> you to think  
>> about
>> writing a paper and creating a discussion about>> how to better  
>> communicate
>> amongst ourselves, as one of the primary>> issues to be addressed  
>> at the
>> Metaphorum.>>> I don't think it is good enough for Angela, Alfredo
>> and Paul
>> to>> invent some governing structure, or that we hold elections; as
>> much>>
>> as they are important, they are not enough in and of themselves.   
>> I>> think
>> we need to evolve a new method of reflexive decision structure>> that
>> allows us to be able to participate electronically in ongoing>>  
>> decision
>> taking.   I am suggesting that we figure out a way to have>> an  
>> ongoing
>> syntegration electronically.  As Stafford loved to say,>> the whole
>> point
>> of the syntegration was to transcend Heisenberg, to>> get to the point
>> where the discussants could be honest about their>> process.  This
>> is a
>> serious problem within decision structure,>> especially for  
>> organizations
>> that intend to grow, evolve and have>> power.>>> This is my seed of an
>> idea, which is really only a slight enhancement>> of what we are  
>> already
>> doing:>> set an annual conference, and see it as a wave, and then  
>> create>>
>> within the web site a component that is a real accountability of  
>> that>>
>> wave of information/decision, create a construct for the  
>> individual>> wave,
>> with the intention that the next annual wave will actually>> build
>> on the
>> information and communication created by the creation of>> the next
>> wave
>> during the ensuing year.>>> The visualization is that the  
>> Metaphorum is a
>> convergence of>> energy/people/papers in one physical location for a
>> limited time,>> with a burst at the end to the universe, to be  
>> captured on
>> the web>> site (as well as possible) and refined for a year in our
>> individual>> alchemy crucible-like minds through emails and some  
>> kind of
>> ongoing>> blog on the web site.>>> I would like to have us  
>> essentially do
>> an ongoing syntegration in>> annual stages.  St. Gallen can provide a
>> report to the web site that>> can be the grounding for the rest of
>> us to
>> converse about until the>> next Metaphorum.  I wouldn't want it to
>> dominate
>> the discussion, and>> would hope that parts of the Metaphorum would
>> continue to explore and>> enhance applications of VSM, adding to the
>> discussion about how to>> bring VSM to a larger section of the world's
>> consciousness.  I just>> know that in the ecological analysis of the
>> organism, a healthy>> organism devotes 90% of its energy to its  
>> internal
>> organization, and>> it seems to me that we have been expecting our
>> leaders
>> to do the hard>> work of the administrative details to keep everything
>> going, and it>> would be healthy for us all to be able to help make
>> this a
>> viable>> system for progressively improved discussion and internal
>> decision.>> Sort of simultaneous System 1 and System 3-4-5, as I  
>> understand
>> the>> model, but then, I have never claimed that I understand VSM.
>> It is>>
>> Stafford's larger vision that captures my imagination.  PLATFORM FOR>>
>> CHANGE is the work he was doing because Chile provided him with the>>
>> opportunity to show it's success.  We have a lot to give to the>>  
>> world,
>> and I hope we can figure out ways to be effective, both>>  
>> internally as a
>> network/organism/organization and outwardly to the>> greater  
>> environment of
>> social consciousness.>>> For more information go to:  
>> www.metaphorum.org>>
>> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go
>>>> to:  www.platformforchange.org>>>> --
>>>  ӧѧا֧ߧڧ֧,>  Leonid                           
>>> mailto:[log in to unmask]
>>> > For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org> For the Metaphorum
>> Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:
>>> www.platformforchange.orgFor more information go to:
>> www.metaphorum.orgFor the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment
>> (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

> For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
> For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org



-- 
 ,
 Leonid                          mailto:[log in to unmask]

For more information go to: www.metaphorum.org
For the Metaphorum Collaborative Working Environment (MCWE) go to:  www.platformforchange.org

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

September 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
August 2017
May 2017
November 2016
October 2016
July 2016
June 2016
March 2016
November 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager