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Subject: Re: Name for Irish Sea?
From: Micheál Ó Catháin <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:Scholars and students of Old Irish <[log in to unmask]>
Date:Tue, 20 Dec 2005 13:36:26 +0100
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A Dennis, chuala mé "Muir Meann" fiú amháin sa teach sa mbaile ach is
fianaise sin maidir le daoine meánaosta seachas leis an mheánaois!

The evidence is probably incomplete rather than negative in an absolute
sense so it will be interesting to see what the editors of the LOCUS project
decide when they come to the letter M.  Inclusion but with question marks
scattered around the place?  As far as I know (but I don't know), its a case
of "b'fhéidir gurbh ea agus seacht mb'fhéidir nárbh ea" (or vice versa??).
"Muir Éireann" seems to have replaced "Muir Meann" in the official usage
again in the late twentieth century, so there is probably an opinion
somewhere on the "balance of the b'fhéidireachaí" which has since been
followed.

Apart from where the DIL references might lead you, I don't know where you
will find literature on this matter.  One other possible lead - if you get a
hold of the Festschrift for Patrick Ford you might follow references in
Anders Ahlquist's contribution there to previous work on the poem "Is acher
an gaíth anocht" which contains "réimm mora mind".  It is the location of
"Lothlind" only which concerns AA in that article (I think) but, as far as I
remember, he refers to previous discussions (ag Ó hUaithne?) concerning the
author's probable location and that earlier material might include some
discussion of the "réimm mora mind".  Carney doesn't go into it in Medieval
Irish Lyrics.  The poem is also in Greene and O'Connor's Golden Treasury
(which I don't have to hand), you might find something there.  Poem is from
the St Gall Priscian and to be found in Thesaurus ii, p. 290 also.

On a different tack, is there anything from Welsh sources or e.g. in the
Lives of criss-crossing saints connected with Finnian, David et al?

Gabh mo leithscéal ach is beagán eolais ar an gceist atá agam seachas fios
an fhreagra.

Micheál


On 17/12/2005 02:24, "Dennis King" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Micheál wrote:
> 
>> Some references where "muir menn" may have referred to that body of
>> water
>> are given as the last paragraph of the DIL entry for 1 menn.
> 
> GRMA!  Feicim anois go bhfuil "An Mhuir Mheann, the Irish Sea"
> in FGB.  An bhfaca tú an t-ainm sin ar léarscáil riamh?  Deir
> DIL gur "common epithet of the sea" a bhí ann, rud atá éasca
> a thuiscint: an mhuir ghlé.  Ach an raibh sé riamh ina áitainm
> sa tseanlitríocht?  An sampla is láidre den úsáid seo in DIL,
> de réir dealraimh, ná:
> 
> do thuind mara mind 'of the Irish Sea' Met. Dind. iii 122
> 
> Seo an rann iomlán ó "Dún Crimthaind":
> 
> Tucus lenid Loga luind
> dom thír do thuind mara mind;
> sechis ór forloiscthe fland
> rofuacht ó hall cota hind.
> 
> D'aistrigh Edward Gwynn mar seo é:
> 
> I brought the shirt of fierce Lug
> to my country from the water of the Irish sea;
> all of refined red gold,
> that was inwoven from bridle to head.
> 
> Ach an raibh údarás ar bith aige "Irish sea" a thabhairt air?
> Is féidir gurb í Muir Éireann a bhí i gceist anseo de facto,
> ach ceapaim go mbeadh "from the wave of the/a limpid sea"
> níos cruinne sa chás seo.  Do bharúil?
> 
> (Dála an scéil, is maith liomsa "the stammering sea"!)
> 
> Dennis
> 

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