On 6/4/05 19:08, "Dennis King" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> Daor oraind ni fhuil
>>> "Hard, severe; costly (in effort, in suffering). 'Ní bheidh
>>> Dia daor orainn', God will not be to hard on us. 'Bhí an
>>> ghaoth daor orainn', we had an unfavourable wind. 'Ba dhaor
>>> an turas orm é', I paid dearly, suffered, for that journey."
> Micheál wrote:
>> While paragraph 3 under "daor" in FGB does indeed give many examples of
>> "daor" followed by "ar", none of that gives a basis for stating that
>> what I wrote "doesn't make any sense".
> I should have used as a more gentle demurrer. The truth is
> that I never normally use "daor" followed by "do", and only
> rarely run into the "daor ar" idiom. 99% of the time modern "daor"
> = expensive, as in §4 of FGB. The point is that, nonetheless,
> as far as I can tell whenever "daor orainn" is encountered
> in any dialect it means "hard on us" or something to that effect,
> not "dear to us". What you wrote, Micheál, by way of correcting
> me, was:
>> If modern usage of use, "daor orainn" rather than "daor dúinn"
>> is the usage to which I think you are referring here with meaning
>> 'dear', 'expensive' -> 'precious'.
> As best I can make out form that, you're saying that "daor orainn"
> means "precious to us". If I've misunderstood, I'm sorry.
> Otherwise, I still think that saying that "daor orainn" -- which
> is the phrase that is at issue in the poem -- means "precious to us"
> doesn't make any sense, and I was so startled that you suggested it
> that I exclaimed accordingly.
Dennis, I wasn't correcting you. That was additional information. It was
prefaced by "If modern usage [is] of use" in case your previous message was
about language which was "late" but not modern in which case my message
would be complementary. If in the event my message was contradictory, it was
never other than complimentary.
I did not suggest "precious to us". The question at the time was if that
suggestion would be dismissed on the grounds of "do" with "daor" for such
usage and "ar" for the older usage. I had no interest in retaining a
reading "precious to us" but, in case any other person did, I thought the
information that "ar" is used in Modern Irish in the range 'dear',
'expensive' (to which the previous range 'precious' is historically
connected) rather than "do" might be relevant, gave that and referenced an
article by David Greene for the 180 degree turn in meaning involved over
But anyway, that 180 means any further discussion in this type of forum
could only lead to a quagmire (see that little booby trap up there "dear to
us" - costly? precious?) so, not being able to go to the Emigrant and
offering that Pat Cadhan's prices would be "níos daoire ormsa ná ortsa", I
offer you an alternative, possibly more productive, quagmire -
Cuimíne Fota is warned that he will die in a monastery called Corcach.
There may be a phrase in the stories of him (Ériú v, JJOK again?) which you
would find to be proverbial or a maxim for the website in the sense - one
should not enter a quagmire.