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Subject: Re: FWD: H-SAE: World Utopian Competition
From: Carmel McCaffrey <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.
Date:Fri, 4 Jun 2004 10:55:57 -0400
Content-Type:text/plain
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Dave,

That is the point I was trying to make - that we cannot firmly establish 
the "warrior ethos" as it comes to us from much later writings.  "An 
Tain Bo' is in itself in dispute - is it the imagination of Christian 
monks or has it any validity as source on Iron Age Ireland?   I think 
that it is both but it is a stretch to say that we can take it as 
totally valid.  It was written almost 1,000 years after the time it is 
supposed to be describing. The Christin bias in it is palpable.  The 
Iron Age archeology of Ireland does not show much weaponry as a great 
percentage of finds.

As regards the perception of violence we have to go not further than 
Giraldus in the twelfth century who tries to justify the Norman invasion 
of Ireland - a very violent event - by claiming that Irish society was 
barbaric and in need of "civilization."  Invaders usually try to blacken 
the society they take over.  His views were accepted in England but of 
course no Irish scholar accepts this position.    Irish language poetry 
and the Irish annals of the period testify to the terrible violence of 
the English invasion.

The point I am trying to make is that we are in danger of stereotyping 
if we accept that "Celtic" violence existed in a vacuum.  The discussion 
as I saw it seemed to be suggesting this.

Carmel
















46FORTIN wrote:
> Hi Carmel,
> 
> I'm at work, so I'll have to be brief.
> 
> First off, like so many of us, I'm using the term "Celt" with the
> understanding that it is dangerous to lump the customs and traditions of the
> Welsh, Irish, Gaulish, Scottish, etc. together under a linguistic term.
> However, it is a convenient term when looking at he big picture.
> 
> Second, recent scholarship into societies where fueding was an integral part
> of the culture has found that feuding by itself was not necessarily a bad
> thing.  It could not only be a recognized form of dispute resolution, but
> could also reinforce kinship ties and develope new ones. I think if you place
> it within the context of cattle raiding that makes up a good chunk of early
> Irish literature, you see that violence in and of itself was not looked down
> upon by a society with the warrior ethos.
> 
> I'm not sure I agree with you regarding the archaeological evidence of
> violence, though I would defer such questions to Ray.
> 
> I did intend this thread to be semi-scholarly, though there's nothing wrong
> with having a bit of fun...
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
>>===== Original Message From "CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List."
> 
> <[log in to unmask]> =====
> 
>>What evidence do you have for saying this?  "Feuding" was an acceptable
>>form of
>>resolution?  Compared to what?  The Romans?  We should place the Celtic
>>culture
>>within context at least.
>>
>>We do not have direct information on the "Celts" or indeed whether they
>>were actually a people.  We can only talk about a culture and in the
>>ancient Irish culture - from later texts- the decentralization seemed to
>>have worked well with the  “Dáil” discussion group being central to the
>>working order of things.  The archeology in Ireland does not suggest
>>much violence
>>
>>I realize that this is not a scholarly exchange here but it is in danger
>>of becoming silly or worse. . We ought to be careful about accepting the
>>later writings or contemporary writings of those who were biased against
>>the Celtic culture.
>>
>>Carmel McCaffrey
>>
>>46FORTIN wrote:
>>
>>>You might be on to something there, though I think some amount of fighting
>>>and/or arguing (good natured, of course) is mandatory--Celts don't ever
> 
> seem
> 
>>>to appreciate anyone telling them what's what (in more academic terms, most
>>>Celtic polities tend towards decentralization, with feuding as an
> 
> acceptable
> 
>>>form of dispute resolution).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>===== Original Message From "CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List."
>>>
>>><[log in to unmask]> =====
>>>
>>>
>>>>well, let's see: there's a strong emphasis on art and education; the
>>>>place is always full of family, friends, strangers and wee beasties;
>>>>there's always just enough money; plenty to eat, drink, and smoke; and
>>>>strange things constantly happen that no one can explain.  best of all,
>>>>there's never any fightin' or arguein' because i'm always right.  if
>>>>that's not celt's utopia - what is?
>>>>
>>>>there's a lot of bull-sh*te that goes on - does that count for cattle?
>>>>
>>>>--------Included Message----------
>>>>
>>>>Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 20:44:21 -0400
>>>>From: "46FORTIN" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>Reply-To: "CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List."
>>>>
>>>><[log in to unmask]>
>>>>
>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>Subject: Re: FWD: H-SAE: World Utopian Competition
>>>>
>>>>Hmmm.  I was thinking cattle had to be involved.  Though, then again,
>>>>
>>>>I
>>>>
>>>>haven't seen your flat...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>===== Original Message From "CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List."
>>>>
>>>><[log in to unmask]> =====
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Any thoughts on what a Celtic Utopia might look like?
>>>>>
>>>>>a bit like my flat
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---------Included Message----------
>>>>>Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 11:10:04 -0400
>>>>>From: "46FORTIN" <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>Reply-To: "CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List."
>>>>><[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>Subject: FWD: H-SAE: World Utopian Competition
>>>>>
>>>>>A cross posting from another list--just nice to know that there's
>>>>
>>>>still
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>folks
>>>>>who visualize a brighter future given the current mess.
>>>>>
>>>>>Any thoughts on what a Celtic Utopia might look like?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>===== Original Message From An H-Net List for the Society for the
>>>>>
>>>>>Anthropology of Europe <[log in to unmask]> =====
>>>>>It occurs to me that some of you on this list may be interested in
>>>>>ideas
>>>>>about where the world is going, and where it might go.  So I draw
>>>>
>>>>your
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>attention to a competition organised by SOC Stockholm for essays on
>>>>>aspects of Utopia - the World Utopian Competition. You may find the
>>>>>essays and MAY COMMENT ON THEIR IDEAS at http://www.soc.nu/utopian/
>>>>>From
>>>>>an initial fields of 120 or so there are now 22, but they are drawn
>>>>>from
>>>>>a wide range of countries with differing perspectives. You are not
>>>>>supposed to comment on entries by participants with whom you have
>>>>>contacts. The evaluative process begins next month with the general
>>>>>public voting, followed by an evaluation by an expert panel which
>>>>
>>>>will
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>take the votes into account, but not be bound by them. The process
>>>>
>>>>is
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>scheduled to end in October.,
>>>>>
>>>>>Think of the future !
>>>>>
>>>>>Ciao
>>>>>
>>>>>Cyril Belshaw
>>>>>
>>>>>Cyril Belshaw
>>>>>2901 - 969 Richards St.
>>>>>Vancouver B.C. Canada V6B 1A8
>>>>>http://www.anthropologising.ca <http://www.anthropologising.ca/>
>>>>><http://www.anthropologtising.ca/>
>>>>>604.739.8130
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---------End of Included Message----------
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>---------End of Included Message----------
>>>
>>>
>>>.
>>>
> 
> 
> .
> 

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