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CELTIC-L  February 2003

CELTIC-L February 2003

Subject:

Celtic Christianity Books (was RE: What the Picts built)

From:

46FORTIN <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Sun, 9 Feb 2003 13:14:04 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (144 lines)

Vicki,

You might want to look at a few books on Roman Britain that are out there.
Michael E. Jones, _The End of Roman Britain_ (Cornell, 1996) is pretty good.
Also see N. J. Higham, _The Convert Kings: Power and Religious Affiliation in
Early Anglo-Saxon England (Manchester, 1997), which has an interesting thesis
on the complex inter-relationships between post-Roman kings and Chritianity.

There's been some stuff written on Pelagius, a British priest who inspired a
heresy that Augustine of Hippo (d. 430) took the time to refute. In these
studies you will find some discussion of the state of Christianity in Britain
prior to Augustine of Canterbury (d. 607) showing up:

Gerald Bonner, _Church and Faith in the Patristic Tradition: Augustine,
Pelagianism, and Early Christian Northumbria_ (Variorum, 1996)

B.R. Rees, _Pelagius: a Reluctant Heretic_ (Boydell and Brewer, 1998).

Since you are itnerested in Scotland, you might want to look at the
appropriate chapters of _Scotland: The Making of the Kingdom_ by Archibald
Duncan (Edinburgh, 1975)--not much here on early Christianity, but a reliable
source.

And, if you haven't already, it might be fun to read Bede's _Ecclesiastical
History of the English People_--the Oxford World Classics paperback (1994) is
the most reliable translation that can be had cheaply.

"Celtic Christianity" is one of those loaded terms that causes heartburn for
many scholars, especially with the junk that has been produced for the modern
faddist.  Most of what has been written generally refers to Ireland, though
there were a number of similarities between early Welsh and Breton forms, and,
since there was a constant connection between Ireland and the west coast of
Scotland during this period (remember Patrick originally came from Northwest
Britain), the Scottish as well.  The principal element differentiating these
areas was the fact that the Roman form of Christianity was based in an urban
setting--something lacking in most of Britain.  Thus, monasteries were far
more important in the ecclesiastical structure, which led to some interesting
alternatives.  Additionally, Christianity was a very malleable religion, and
how it adapted to the political forms found in these regions also influenced
its development.  Probably the best things out there are by Kathleen Hughes,
who, sadly died far too early in her academic career.  Other works include:

Kathleen Hughes, "The Celtic Church: Is This a Valid Concept?" Cambridge
Medieval Celtic Studies 1 (1981): 1-20.

Kathleen Hughes, _The Church in Early Irish Society_, (Methuen, 1966).

Lisa M. Bitel, _Isle of the Saints: Monastic Settlement and Christian
Community in Early Ireland_ (Cornell, 1990).

Donnachadt  Crrin, "Prehistoric and Early Christian Ireland," in _The
Oxford History of Ireland_, R.F. Foster, ed. (Oxford, 1992).

A.Charles Thomas, _The Early Christian Archaeology of North Britain_ (Oxford,
1971).

A.Charles Thomas, _Christianity in Roman Britain to AD 500_ (Routledge, 1999).

----
Dave

>===== Original Message From "CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List."
<[log in to unmask]> =====
>Raising hand again................could someone suggest a good book on
>Celtic Christianity before Roman Catholicism was brought to Scotland.
>Something that would give the history of the arrival of the new religion
>(brought by the Romans, I believe, or was it earlier?), the scriptures they
>used, the rituals, as well as describe how long it took for complete
>conversion, and how the change affected daily life, etc.  Is there such an
>animal out there?  This would be before St. Columba,  I
>assume.............and also how the arrival of Christianity affected
>language.
>
>vicki
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "fwilson" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2003 9:52 AM
>Subject: Re: What the Picts built
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Cruin MacGriogair" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Saturday, February 08, 2003 3:33 AM
>Subject: Re: What the Picts built
>
>
>> fwilson wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >F.
>
>They are stone, they are old, and they are there. And
>is they are way too old. They predate the Indo-European language spread.
>................pre -Aryan people who could achieve big things. And, in
>fact, their "big things" are all we have left.
>> (and where and when) do we define as "Picts". If we simply say that the
>> Picts were the people who lived in Alba before the Celtic tribes
>> arrived, then off course (by this very definition) they built the stone
>> monuments. ...................mathematical skills to build these
>structures would have the language skills to match.
>
>** Yes, would take a lot of sophisticated grunts to put that together: -)
>
>I think, as previously suggested by Muiris Mag
>> Ualghairg, that language and culture may have developed on the >British
>Isles as much as the rest of Europe, and spread out from there (and all  the
>way along the silk route to the gates of China).
> I think many Picts learned to speak Brythonic (to deal and trade with
>> their neighbors to the south), and later Gaelic, (to deal with the
>> Scots) but that they hung on stubbornly to their own pre-historic
>> language, art, and culture right up to the merge.
>.
>*** This parallels another merge that baffles me. When the Picts and the
>Celts ganged up on the Britons in S.W. Scotland after the Romans left ,they
>too just disappeared without trace. Did they move south or were they all
>slaughtered.( a likely event in those days)considering the carnage that
>followed in Romano- Britain when the Picts/Celts moved south. What kind of
>Christianity did Columba teach these guys anyway ? No prisoners au nom de
>Pre et du Fils et du Saint Esprit??
>
>***Thats what is wrong with this picture. Could people like that know
>mathematics and build stuff  like Stonehenge which would suggest a
>sophisticated culture.??? St. Ninian christianized the Picts circa 300 AD
>and a fat lot of good that did either. ( or so Bede says)
> The Southern Picts of course could have been quite different from the
>Northern Picts in disposition and culture perhaps due to environmental
>differences and the proximity to other influences across the channel.
>If the Picts build Stonehenge it certainly was'nt the ones who lived north
>of the Cheviots.
>
>We are all just the bits, the flotsam and jetsam, of our times, and
>> their times. They all breath in us.
>>
>** A poignant remark gu dearbh and an appropriate one to end this thread.
>
>Mran ting airson an abairtean agaibh. Bha gl inntinneachd.
>
>F.

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