> De : Francine Nicholson <[log in to unmask]>
> Objet : Re: Druid - Magus
>> From: Alexis <[log in to unmask]>
>> I am not sure that conception by ingestion could be considered as
>> reincarnation or transmigration.
> I think you're confusing concepts. Conception can occur in many ways.
> Transmigration or reincarnation--whatever is going on in the Irish tales--is
> not *necessarily* linked to conception by ingestion. It's just that the
> conceptions of extraordinary people--whether saints or heros--tend to be
> extraordinary themselves.
Sorry if I did not make myself clear, that is not what I meant.
>> As far as I know, esoterism (in a strict sense of something being reserved
>> only for a small part of initiated people) is not part of any Christian
> It's a question of degree. By definition, priests are set aside through
> ordination and granted the power to perform transformatory acts that cannot
> be performed by anone else. Mystical theology--including Christian mystical
> theology--assumes that experiences and subsequent knowledge are granted to
> some but not all. So while mainstream Christianity may not be gnostic, it is
> not without initiatory experiences and spiritual elite.
Wasn't gnosticism condamned by Church ? An "initiatory experience" is not an
initiation, and I should add that there is no hidden tradition in
Christianity : no initiation, no secrets = no esoterism ;-)
>> But an allegoric or mystic way of understanding the episode could
>> be that whatever transformation affects you, the soul is always one and the
>> same. I don't think that the way Carey is interpreting this poem is the way
>> in which it was written. By the way, we have many stories about travelling
>> souls, but I am not sure that they can be interpreted as tales of
>> transmigration, or shamanic practices...
> If you want to talk about how stories should be seen in terms of encounters
> with the Otherworld, fine, but I see no reason to start calling these
> stories "shamanic." Not every figure who interacts with the Otherworld is a
> shaman. Shamanism is a total complex characteristic of some cultures and not
> of others. Please see the essay by Alice B. Kehoe, "Eliade and Hultkrantz:
> the European primitivism tradition" (The American Indian Quarterly,
> Summer-Fall 1996 v20 n3-4 pp. 377-93). Unless you can offer proof that the
> Celtic-speaking people in general and the Irish in particular acquired some
> of their religious and ceremonial culture from Finno-Ugric, Altaic, or
> Siberian peoples or the shamanic peoples of North and South America, and
> that the Irish tales reflect experiences that took place within the context
> of ceremonies and beliefs consistent with those of shamanic cultures, then I
> think that your use of that term in reference to medieval Irish tales is
Once more, I apologize if I did not make myself clear. I did not say that
there was a kind of celtic or christian shamanism (pace Melia), it was just
a more general example, a bad one I assume.