LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 16.5

Help for OLD-IRISH-L Archives


OLD-IRISH-L Archives

OLD-IRISH-L Archives


OLD-IRISH-L@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

OLD-IRISH-L Home

OLD-IRISH-L Home

OLD-IRISH-L  June 2002

OLD-IRISH-L June 2002

Subject:

Re: Lia Fáil (WAS: Re: Crom Cruaich)

From:

Richard Marsh <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Scholars and students of Old Irish <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 27 Jun 2002 10:50:43 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (102 lines)

> Alternatives to the phallomorphism--and to the customary
identification of
> the stone--are suggested in "Lia Fáil: fact and fiction in the
tradition" by
> Tomás Ó Broin, Celtica 21, pp. 393-401. You can find it on line at:
> http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/celtica/c21/c21-393.pdf
[snip]
> he explains why he thinks the stone at Tara is
> not the Lia Fáil mentioned in literary sources. In my opinion, Ó
Broin's
> ideas are worth considering, though they run counter to the usual view
of
> the stone as phallomorphic. Has anyone else read the article?

Just got round to it. A lot of theory based on unproven hypothesis. "For
reasons already given, this conical stone cannot be the Lia Fáil." Those
reasons are unsupported opinions. Presumably Ó Broin has seen the
supposed Lia Fáil at Tara, though he places its present location on Ráth
na Ríogh (the Royal Enclosure, the bank and internal fosse surrounding
the summit), when in fact it is on the Forrad.

"Of all the monuments at Tara, the Lia Fáil had the least chance of
surviving struggles and depredations. ... I feel sure the Lia Fáil was
removed or destroyed early on." Perhaps it was deliberately buried more
or less in situ, like the Killycluggin Stone. It was removed c. AD 1845
from a recumbent position north of the Mound of the Hostages. Conn
Céadchathach stepped on it apparently accidentally in the 2nd century
AD. Both of these references suggest it had been buried. I would like to
know of any other references to its pre-Forrad position.

"[de Vries] fails, however, to come to the logical conclusion, that the
stone is the bride, not a phallus." Not logical to me.

"However, [de Vries's] belief that the stone is phallomorphic is in
direct conflict with goddess identification and the etymology." Not at
all. The usual interpretation is not that the stone *is* the goddess,
but that her voice from the earth comes out *through* the stone. It is a
well-attested fact of human nature that women communicate with men
through their penises. And as to the etymology, "fáil" has a number of
possible meanings, not all necessarily mutually exclusive. I prefer "of
the enclosure" and "of destiny" myself.

The PDF format is not particularly helpful for discussion purposes. You
can't select and copy, as you can with html.

Richard Marsh
----- Original Message -----
From: Francine Nicholson <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2002 7:20 PM
Subject: Lia Fáil (WAS: Re: Crom Cruaich)


> >From: Richard Marsh <[log in to unmask]>
>
> >The Lia Fáil was recumbent on the north side of the passage tomb
called
> >the Mound of the Hostages until it was moved to its present location
on
> >the Forrad in the 1840s to commemorate the rebels fallen in the
Battle
> >of Tara in 1798. It may have been buried deliberately, perhaps as a
> >threshold, as there was an entrance to the Royal Enclosure (dated to
the
> >Iron Age) in the area where it was found.
>
> Alternatives to the phallomorphism--and to the customary
identification of
> the stone--are suggested in "Lia Fáil: fact and fiction in the
tradition" by
> Tomás Ó Broin, Celtica 21, pp. 393-401. You can find it on line at:
> http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/celtica/c21/c21-393.pdf
>
> To state it simply, Ó Broin contends that the Lia Fáil mentioned in
texts
> was a flagstone on which the king stepped to be inaugurated. In his
view,
> the stone represented the goddess of sovereignty (to use Ó Broin's
term). He
> says that the Lia Fáil described as being at Tara was only one of many
such
> stones, normally marked by impressions left by the feet of the
eponymous
> ancestor or first leader believed to have been inaugurated there. Ó
Broin
> points out the problems with the only literary reference that
identifies the
> Lia Fáil as conical. Finally, he explains why he thinks the stone at
Tara is
> not the Lia Fáil mentioned in literary sources. In my opinion, Ó
Broin's
> ideas are worth considering, though they run counter to the usual view
of
> the stone as phallomorphic. Has anyone else read the article?
>
> Francine Nicholson
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
>

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

Advanced Options


Options

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password


Search Archives

Search Archives


Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe


Archives

January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997

ATOM RSS1 RSS2



LISTSERV.HEANET.IE

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager