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CELTIC-L  April 2002

CELTIC-L April 2002

Subject:

Re: North British vs. Welsh and Scottish

From:

Alizah E Solomon <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Sun, 14 Apr 2002 13:05:12 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (174 lines)

Cris:

 Ok, so if Welshmen are the only true holders of the title Briton, can
> someone please tell me why the name is used for people who live in England
> then?

Are you confusing Briton with Britain?  (This is what led me to do a
research project on this , because I was totally confused between Briton,
Britain, and Breton.)

It was Caesar in 55 BC who invaded the island he reported as "Britannia",
after the native inhabitants he reported as "Britons."
Caesar gives the impression of a pan-Celtic society, so to speak.

In Boudicca's speech,  circa AD 60, reported by Cassius Dio, she says to her
Briton troops,
For I consider you all kinsmen, seeing that you inhabit a single island and
are called by one common name,- let us, I say, do our duty while we still
remember what freedom is, that we may leave to our children not only its
appellation but also its reality."

The landmark event was Briton King Vortigern's importing of Teutonic
mercenaries Hengst and Horsa to help fight off Pictish tribes form the
north.  Hengst and Horsa then turned on their hosts and so began the Saxon
invasions.

When the Teutonic tribes began to invade after the Romans pulled out, the
native Britons were pushed into smaller areas of land.

The land that the Teutonic tribes claimed became known as the land of the
"Angelcynn (pronounced 'Angle-kin'), an Old English word meaning 'the
English People'", thus , Angle-land or England.

The Britons, to the Saxons , were Wealas or Welsh, meaning "foreigner."  The
land that retained Celtic control, ie.. Briton control, was called Wales
after the Welsh.

St. Augustine of Canterbury came to the island to dispel a particular
heresy, to get the Celtic Christians to submit to Rome, and to evangelize
the Saxons.

As the invaders won land, and became Christianized, the powerbase of the
island shifted.  England became the reigning power on the island, plus, as
it became Christianized, it obtained the facility of the written word.  The
Welsh held their own in a somewhat abbreviated territory, still the Briton
tribes , but now known by the English/Anglo-Saxons as the Welsh.

>How can you prove to me that Arthur or his people were Welsh and not
Scots?>

It's all in the  "if" -

my post was:
If  Arthur lived during the 5th century, fighting off invading Saxons, by
process of elimination, he would have been a Briton, ie. a Welshman.

The kingdom of Scotland was not established until 843.

St.Augustine of Canterbury, in the 5th century, was at odds with the Welsh
Chrisitans who would not join under Rome's authority and would not share the
gospel with the invading Saxons.  Thus you had Welsh Christian Britons
fighting Saxons in the process of being Christianized.

The landscape was the area that the Britons were trying to hold against the
Saxons.  It would have been more likely that the man to unite and lead the
Britons would have been a Briton himself, since the polarization occurred
between Britons who were defending their homeland from invaders encroaching
on their territory (Saxons), on one hand, and northern Picts on the other.
If Arthur were a Pict, he  would have been fighting against his own people,
which is not necessarily unheard of.

I
"449 In this year Mauricius and Valentinian obtained the Kingdom and reigned
seven years. In their days Hengest and Horsa, invited by Vortigern, King of
the Britons, came to Britain at a place called Ebbsfleet at first to help
the Britons, but later they fought against them. The king ordered them to
fight against the Picts, and so they did and had victory wherever they came.
They then sent to Angeln; ordered them to send them more aid and to be told
of the worthlessness of the Britons and of the excellence of the land. They
sent them more aid. These men came from three nations of Germany: from the
Old Saxons, from the Angles, from the Jutes."  So wrote a monk in the
Anglo-Saxon Chronicles many centuries ago.

http://www.angelcynn.org.uk/

>I would have thought it was better to Romanize (sp) the  locals,>

There was Romanization, client kingdoms and so on.  The revolts of Boudicca,
and Caraticus on the island  and Vercingetorix on the continent show,
however, that not everyone wanted to be Romanized.

Alizah

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cris Wilson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 8:23 AM
Subject: North British vs. Welsh and Scottish


> >From: Alizah E Solomon <[log in to unmask]>
>
> >If Arthur lived during the 5th century, fighting off invading Saxons, by
> >process of elimination, he would have been a Briton, ie. a Welshman.
> >
> >Alizah
> >
>
>
>
> Ok, so if Welshmen are the only true holders of the title Briton, can
> someone please tell me why the name is used for people who live in England
> then? Are we talking about the definition of Wales as we know it today ie
> the Principality, or are we talking about a greater Wales, in that case
did
> the inhabitants of Wales today live in the other areas of greater Wales or
> not?
>
> How can you prove to me that Arthur or his people were Welsh and not
Scots?
> Did the Romans bring all the people who populated England (then a country
> not even thought of) from 'other' places and chased all the Celtic peoples
> into the far-flung corners of the Islands?  Why did that do this rather
> costly adventure, I would have thought it was better to Romanise (sp) the
> locals, rather than import your own labour and completely remove the
> indigenous people into the far flung corners beyond the Empire.
>
>
> If the Romans did Romanise the locals, then surly the same Celtic blood
> strain would still be present after the Romans left. Did the 'Proper'
Celts
> who lived in Wales and Scotland intermingle with the Norwegian and Danish
> Vikings? Are the Vikings Proper Celts, so then there would be not
definition
> difference?
>
> The bottom line for me is this. When did the great genetic change occur
that
> said that only Irish, Scots, French and Welsh can be true Celts and the
rest
> of the godforsaken people cannot?   I also want to know why Arthur cannot
be
> a Scot, or an Irishman by Birth?
>
> What about the Saxons who fled north and settled in Scotland around
> Edinburgh after 1066? Are their children called as Celtic today or are
they
> still referred to as English? To me this is a classical example of
> population migration and intermixing, a thing that I would think very
> conceivable after the Romans came.
>
> I did once hear a radio programme about the definition of words a few
years
> ago that said something like this - 'At one stage it was thought that the
> Saxons wiped out the Romano-Britons, but since the word Briton came to be
> regarded as a definition of 'slave', then it was conservable that the
> indigenous people were left alone to continue farming and crafting things,
> but had a lower social poison in the Saxon society then the Saxons
> themselves.'
>
> Cris
>
>
> If not I will pack my towel, fish my 'thumb' out of its hidey-hole and
wait
> for the Heart of Gold to appear , hitch a lift and get myself legless
> drinking Pan-Galactic gargle blasters, whilst trying to remember why the
> Earth is mostly Harmless!"
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com

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