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CELTIC-L  April 2002

CELTIC-L April 2002

Subject:

Re: Caesar on the Gauls

From:

Vyvyan Ogma Wyverne <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Thu, 4 Apr 2002 14:12:49 +0930

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (150 lines)

Hallo John,


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Hooker" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, 3 April 2002 3:03 AM
Subject: Re: Caesar on the Gauls


> Hi Vyvyan,
>
> >> Perhaps if you actually looked at some Gaulish coins then you would see
> >> that they did use the Roman alphabet.
> >
> >This is faulty logic.  Here's your syllogism::
> >The coins are Gaulish.
> >They have Latin inscriptions.
> >Therefore Gaulish coins may have Latin inscriptions.
> >
> >But the question is 'are the coins Gaulish or Romano-Celtic or Roman?'
So
> >your basic premise is unproved.
> >
> >And it becomes circular when you use this false 'proof' as evidence that
> >Gauls used the Roman alphabet on coins.
>
> None of this makes any sense. Define "Gaulish", "Romano-Celtic", and
> "Roman" in a numismatic context for me and I might better understand what
> you are trying to say.

I mean by Gaulish to do with the culture of the Gauls.  By Romano-Celtic I
mean belonging to the culture which emerged from the marriage of Roman and
Celtic culture after the conquest of Gaul in Europe and the Occupation in
Britain.  By Roman I mean specific to Roman culture and not derived from
Celtic at all.

But your syllogism is still faulty.
>
> >> Also, the gold stater of Vercingertorix is in Latin letters, and (in
case
> >> you will claim this is a Roman coin!) the metal alloy is Gaulish and
> >> absolutely not Roman who used very fine gold.The predecessor of
> >> Vercingetorix also used coins of the same type with the name in Latin
> >> letters. These are just a couple of hundreds of other examples.
> >
> >This is educated conjecture and needs to be carefully considered before
it's
> >taken on board.  It just isn't fact.
>
> Explain why you think this is not fact.

You have not said 'The coin is Roman because we have incontrovertible
proof', you have said 'The coin is of a metal alloy from which evidence it
is reasoned that it is not Roman because Roman's used very fine gold.

That is educated conjecture.

Again, you are not making any
> sense, and I can't argue such fuzzy thinking -- it has no substance.

It isn't fuzzy.  It is clear and lucid.
>
> >> Greek letters are seen on Celtic coins but they are rarer, and Allen
notes
> >> that psi, phi and omega do not occur at all. Sometimes, a mixture of
Latin
> >> and Greek letters is used (especially where there is a theta). Allen
> >worked
> >> out that about one in fifteen Gaulish coins contains some Greek
element. I
> >> don't think he included the use of the theta in this, but he is not
> >> explicit. Theta shows up where other Greek letters do not (in Belgic
Gaul
> >> and Britain).
> >
> >That's interesting. INteresting interface, the Celto-Greek.  Or is it
> >Graeco-Celtic?
>
> You have to understand that the prototypes of the earliest Celtic coins
are
> Greek, and that Celts were involved with Greeks through trade and served
> with and against them in war. I use the term Graeco-Celtic when explaining
> the artistic fusion that is characteristic of the evolution of Celtic coin
> designs as they assert their Celtic style while maintaining the general
> subject (such as Apollo head/chariot) of their Greek prototypes. Some
later
> Celtic coins followed Roman prototypes such as the boar design on Iceni
and
> Corieltauvian coins following the Republican denarius of C. Hosidius c.f.
> Geta of 60 B.C. that depicts the Calydonian boar (Ovid).

Yes, but of course, the Celts were very diverse, weren't they.  They seem to
have formed close alliances with every other culture they came in contact
with, and exchanged ideas freely, so you have all these different threads of
influence going through their culture or concentrating at interfaces.  This
shows up in the languages of the cultures they influenced, though we've lost
all record of most of the reciprocal effects on European Gaulish languages.
Not so the archeology of material remains, though, fortunately.
>
> >One published
> >> example that I dealt with (handling the actual coins at the Ashmolean
> >> Museum as my check) showed a twenty percent error rate in the published
> >> data sample (not an Ashmolean publication I should hasten to add).
> >
> >By 'error' do you just mean disagreement with you?  Or with the the
> >particular peer-group concensus you subscribe to?  Because where there's
> >still guesswork happening, however cautious and however well-informed, it
> >can't be used to determine the rightness of wrongness of another opinion.
>
> LOL, You are way off on both, and rather rudely so.

Sorry.  I did have a go then.  You must admit I seldom do.

I mean data-entry
> errors e.g. writing up one coin and giving it the catalogue number of
> another, writing 5.72 g instead of 5.27 g, getting coins and their data
> mixed up. that sort of thing -- sloppy work. Nothing at all to do with
> opinions, theories or the like. How else would double entry and second
> party proof reading help to alleviate the problem?

Oh,  I see.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
>
> http://www.writer2001.com/
> Hooker & Perron, Total Project Coordination
> Database-Web...Graphics...Custom Maps...Colour Suites...Expert Systems
> Building the Celtic Coin Index on the Web:
> http://www.writer2001.com/cciwriter2001/
>


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>
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>

Peace,

Vyvyan  /|\

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