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CELTIC-L  April 2002

CELTIC-L April 2002

Subject:

Re: Caesar on the Gau

From:

Vyvyan Ogma Wyverne <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Thu, 4 Apr 2002 13:49:26 +0930

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (171 lines)

Thank you Chris.

I am apprised of your opinions.
I remind you that you don't have to open my emails to the list.  You can
delete them.

I have answered you point by point below.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Gwinn" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, 3 April 2002 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: Caesar on the Gau


> >I know my hypotheses are rather radical,
>
> No, just rather stupid.
>
> >but no one has to take them seriously
>
> Have no fear.
>
> >- I'm only a patchily educated amateur
>
> Perfectly evident.
>
> >- and all I want is to be allowed to air my views along with everyone
> > >else; and of  course, I enjoy the feedback.
>
> No, all you want to do is flood everyone's mailbox with a lot of
unfounded,
> uneducated, unresearched drivel as a means of getting attention.
>
> >A lot hinges on the relationship between the cognates Catholic and
> >Goidelic.
>
> Which is nonexistent! The word Goidil wasn't even coined in Irish until
> approximately the 6th-7th centuries AD (no Irishman called themselves
Goidil
> before this time!) - it was borrowed from Archaic Welsh Guoidel (from a
> Brittonic *Ue:del-), meaning something to the effect of "wildman" or
"people
> of the woods/wilds" - whereas the Greek word katholou, with its derivative
> katholikos (meaning "universal" - it has a perfectly good Greek etymology,
> by the way), appears in ancient Greek sources, such as Aristotle (4th
> century BC) and Polybius (2nd century BC). The two words are not only
> nono-cognate in meaning, but they do not even share the same etymology!!
Get
> your damn facts straight!

These aren't facts, this is scholarly opinion.
>
> >Cath is a common enough C-Celtic title. Cath Bad's an example.
>
> LOL!! It's Cathbad, not Cath Bad!! Old Irish cath "battle" comes from
> Proto-Irish catu-, which we find in early Ogam inscriptions (that you do
not
> seem aware of this is further evidence of your ignorance). Furthermore, th
e
> word is a clear cognate of Gallo-Brittonic catu- "battle", which has also
> given Welsh cad. It is not a title.

Yes, but the etymology was not carved there along side the ogham
inscriptions concerned.  It is still conjectural.
>
> >Olic is the Romanisation of
> >the a C-Celtic word similar to, and meaning roughly the same as, the
modern
> >Irish word 'eolach', which means 'knowledgable'.
>
> Complete BS.

Well it does.
>
> >
> >Now my ten year old Shorter OED lists the word Goidel, which they equate
> >with Gael, as having first appeared (presumably in some text) in 1882,
and
> >yet they somehow manage to derive it from Old Irish!
>
>
> AAAAGGHHHH!!!! Gael is an ANGLICIZATION of Modern Irish Gaidhil! Modern
> Irish Gaidhil is derived from Old Irish Goidil! Old Irish Goidil was
> borrowed from Archaic Welsh Guoidel!
>
> >  Goidelic, they say, is
> >formed from it, just as, say, Icelandic is formed from Iceland. Does
anyone
> >know of an earlier instance of the occurence of the word Goidel?
>
>
> It appears in Irish literature in the 7th century AD - its Old Welsh
> equivalent appears as a personal name in the Liber Landavensis.

Thank you.
>
>
> >While the lack of evidence doesn't exclude the possibility, you'd want
some
> >supporting
> >evidence, wouldn't you? Especially in view of the fact that my rather
> >obvious equation of Goidelic with Catholic works rather better.
>
> You have GOT to be kidding! Spare us all, please.
>
>
> >Cognates of both Cath and Path are found across cultures, and from the
> >earliest to the most recent times, which leads me to believe that the c-p
> >split preceded the 'splitting' of the proto language into Greek, what we
> >now
> >call Celtic, and the Germanic languages.  Rome's pre-Trojan history
> >unpacks,
> >too.
>
> Some P-Celtic cognates of Old Irish cath "battle" are Gaulish catus
"battle"
> and Old Welsh cat, Modern Welsh cad "battle".

That does appear to me to be likely to be so.  Thank you. >
>
> >But for now I want to consider some Cath cognates.  Cathars, Caesar,
> >Cadwallader, Cuthbert, Catherine (could that be Cath /Eirinn?) Cassandra
> >(could that be Cass an Draoi, and she a mature druid and not a nubile
young
> >spear prize?), Irish cathair (a city), and with eclipsis  Goth, gad, god,
> >gus as in an Gus (the cath) Fergus (fear gus - a cath man) and Mother
> >Goose,
> >which is a body of  'folk' wisdom and magical tales of great antiquity,
> >Geth(semane) and more, and with lenition, Chair, as in the Chairs of
study
> >at Universities.
>
>
> Alright - this is pure insanity now. What is the point of all this
nonsense?

When you look further afield, there are all kinds of complexes of cognates
that established etymologies are not taking into account, and they're not
explaining why not. After a brief  but decisive altercation with OUP's OWLs,
I believe they just ignore them.

>
>
> >I'd better stop here and see if anyone's still with me.
>
>
> I wish you would unsubscribe from this list while you're at it - you are
> easily one of the most annoying people I have ever run accross here, and
you
> are degrading the quality of the list. Is this an academic list or not? If
> it isn't, perhaps I should go elsewhere, as I am not interested in being
> bombarded with junk in my mailbox everyday. Seeing that you have no
interest
> in learning from the more experienced here, but rather blasting us all
with
> utter nonsense, I would say that your posts are no better than spam.

I'm sorry if they annoy you.  I am not intending to.


> - Chris Gwinn
.

Thankyou

Vyvyan  /|\
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

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