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CELTIC-L  April 2002

CELTIC-L April 2002

Subject:

North British vs. Welsh and Scottish

From:

Cris Wilson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.

Date:

Wed, 17 Apr 2002 14:49:20 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (98 lines)

>From: Christopher Gwinn <[log in to unmask]>
>
>
>>The bottom line for me is this. When did the great genetic change occur
>>that
>>said that only Irish, Scots, French and Welsh can be true Celts and the
>>rest
>>of the godforsaken people cannot?   I also want to know why Arthur cannot
>>be
>>a Scot, or an Irishman by Birth?
>
>
>You are looking at this all wrong.
>
>There has never been any great genocide of people in Britain and Ireland,
>despite a long history of invasions and colonizations from the Continent -
>in fact, the majority of Britons and Irish are the direct descendats of
>Mesolithic settlers in the islands.


Thank you Chris. (hug)

At long last some one has said what I was saying about a year ago, when I
tried to bring this point up, and I got badly flamed by some who insisted
that anybody who was English could not be Celtic. I tried to say what you
have said, but it fell on deaf ears and I almost left the list because of
it. I have never hidden the fact I am studying ‘Celtic things’ in relation
to Cumbria, I live here and that is why.   Recently I have been watching
programs on Hadrian’s Wall, and it seems that at the end of the Roman
period, the ‘natives’ and the Romans who stayed behind took over the local
farmland and become farmers. This was because the money to pay the soldiers
no longer came from Rome, and families still had to be fed etc.  The
programs were telling us that the differences between the two groups were
cancelled out by the similarities and hardships of farming in the area.

Now this meant to me at the very least the two groups intermingled and
intermarried, so that the Celtic gene was still around amalgamated by the
‘Roman’ one, no wiping out etc, but a gradual blending in.  Just because a
Celtic/Roman family lived a few miles south of Hadrian’s Wall did not make
them any less Celtic or more Roman than those who lived a mile North of the
Wall. (I am using the wall as a boundary as seen though the eyes of the
people at the time)

Now if this is true of life near the northernmost border then surly it is
the same for the rest of the country as you say.  The Elite adapted Roman
lifestyles, but the normal people carried on as normal, marrying into the
local tribes, as well as the offspring of the Romans who took slaves etc to
bed.  Thus the Romans injected ‘fresh blood’ but the main gene pool was
still left very much as it was, and so the Romanised Britons (now classed
today as English) can still carry a trace of Celtic genes, and so can call
themselves Celtish if they want.

When I was studying 1066 and the relationship with King Malcolm and Margaret
his Saxon Queen, I found out from the books I read, that a lot of Saxons
settled around Edinburgh and the lowlands to escape the Normal Conquest, so
that by default of the argument last year, Scots who can trace their
ancestry back that far, must either have had a gene transplant to be a true
Celt, or they have to admit that English people of today, who can trace
their ancestry back over 400 years can have the Celtic essence in their
body.

I have chosen 400 hundred years as a marker because until then few people
travelled beyond their village etc unless they were wealthy, were in the
Army or were travellers of sorts. After that date the New World opened up
and immigration and emigration began to be the norm, but even today genetic
tests seem to show that some genes do not move far. There was a  ‘Meeting
The Ancestors’ programme, where a Middle Ages (or earlier even, I can’t
remember fully) body was given a DNA test, and then the males in the village
were tested as well. It seems enough of the genes were still present in the
villages today to prove that the original settlers had stayed in the area
for about 700 years. If this is possible, then ‘Celtic’ gene traces should
still be found in many English people proving that they were not wiped out,
or sent into the far flung corners of the Empire, but stayed as they would
have done regardless of the invaders.

Now when it comes to the Romans eventually wiping out the Celtic way of life
In most of England, then that I have no argument with, the surviving customs
of Walking The Boundary, Laying Hedges and Well Dressing, survived because
of deep religious feeling or practical farming.

Once Cumbria was part of Wales after the Roman invasion, but not Wales as we
know it today, but something like Cymbrya (Sorry my spelling is bad, but the
word is like the Welsh for Wales). That is why Cumberland, Westmorland; part
of Yorkshire and Lancashire-over-the-Sands became Cumbria in the great
shake-up (or screw up depending on who you are talking to – Long live Real
Lancashire). Thus Arthur or whatever he was called, was a Celt who could
have lived in South Scotland/ Northeast England etc rather than Wales as it
is today, as a leader of kind, travelling around the ‘Greater Wales’
fighting against the Saxon Invaders.


Cris



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