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CELTIC-L  June 2000

CELTIC-L June 2000

Subject:

FW: [CELTIC-L] Tuatha de Danann

From:

Lars De Richter <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Lars De Richter <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Jun 2000 19:00:03 +0200

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (134 lines)

Francine,

Now tell me finally what these misconceptions of mine are! And go check the
f****** URL, the first paragraph you will see is the one I was talking
about.
But since you insist (or maybe you are just lazy) I'll copy and paste it
here:

"The narratives assembled under the title 'Book of Invasions {or
Occupations}' are the literary embodiment of Ireland's own impressions
regarding the history of her population. For the early Irish they served
somewhat the same functions as the accounts of the wanderings of Aeneas did
for the Romans. To say, as some have done, that the 'The Book of Invasions'
is a collection of Irish mythology is to give an entirely wrong impression
of its contents. Some of the characters, it is true, may be rationalized
gods, but the stories as they now stand belong rather to pseudo-history than
to mythology. For example, Emer, Eber, and Eremon, though represented in the
narrative as ancient kings, are in fact merely fictitious personages with
names made up from the ancient name for Ireland, spelled in the earliest
manuscripts as E`riu. Modern students of early Irish history are inclined to
see underlying thse obviously fictitious narratives a substratum of fact,
and to regard the account as reflecting in a general way an historical
record of early population groups."

 And please tell me how I misled people: they can check the websites I gave
for themselves (those websites are specifically about the Tuatha and the
Leabhar Gaballa, which is more than can be said about the ones you gave (the
Ulster-cycle)). And for John Matthews: read the books of which I already
gave the title.

By the way I already know of quite a few people that they like the quality
of my posts, so your last sentence is just impolite and can't hurt me. BTW
which of my sources (except Blamires) are of bad quality.

As a last note: I am still waiting for your comment on my other message.

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]Namens Francine Nicholson
Verzonden: dinsdag 20 juni 2000 18:18
Aan: [log in to unmask]
Onderwerp: Re: [CELTIC-L] Tuatha de Danann


> From: Lars De Richter [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
>
> This is an email list and I already write too many too long emails.
>
        No one asked for long--simply accurate. It is possible to be both
accurate and concise.

> Sometimes people need to be concise and (as such) oversimplify things and
> point other people to sources, so they can go look for themselves.
> Oversimplifying can be a virtue at times.
>
        Not when it reinforces misconceptions.

> I don't think someone who enquires about something wants to be confronted
> with all the technicalities at once. And as such they are better of having
> an oversimplified (very short)
> introduction, with some sources, where they can go look for themselves.
>
        If it leads them on the wrong road, then it's worse than saying
nothing, IMHO.

>  BTW your original message about the Tuatha De Danann was at least as
> concise, and inaccurate.
>
        Please point out the inaccuracies.

> (And I also think it was quite pedantic of you to correct
> someone's faulty spelling (esp. someone's Irish spelling and especially in
> a word of which the spelling varies from user to user)
>
        Point noted. Personally, I prefer to be told how something should be
spelled rather than perpetuating errors.

> in such a marked way, you could just have corrected it and Kitty would
> have seen her mistake by herself)
>
        In my experience, people frequently overlook corrections.

> Lars writes:
> You could have looked at the URL I gave in my first email. Here it is
> again:
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/6779/invasions.html. (This website
> doesn't only include their translation, but also their short
> (oversimplifying) introduction.
>
        I asked for a precise answer to a precise question. Citing a URL for
a very long book of tales does not answer my question.

> I would still like more information on your statement that they saw the
> mythology of the Book of Invasions in the same way as the Hebrews saw the
> Biblical stories.
>
That was NOT what I said. I said: "It's safe to say that these stories meant
as much to pre-Christian Irish as any biblical story meant to the people of
Israel." By that I meant that the stories of Irish mythology in general were
as important to the pre-Christian Irish as the stories found in the Hebrew
bible were and are to the people who told, collected, studied, and still
honor those stories.

> I did not claim I was able to summarize it. I only gave it as an example
> of
> a magical system that is build around the stories of the "Book of
> Invasions". And no one can refute this claim.
>
        How can you make such a claim about a book given that you have not
read it? And anyone who reads the book can refute the claim.

> Lars writes:
> I never stated such a thing. I only said: "but as is often the case with
> these things, they are not always very accurate"
> I said that some pagans (I do not want to have a discussion about
> proportion, but you can always look at some of their websites: just search
> for the words "Celt" and "Pagan" in any major search engine and you
> (especially you) will find a lot of inaccuracies) are inaccurate (I
> thought
> we at least agreed on the quality of Blamires as one example of
> inaccuracy).
> For instance John Matthews (who you implicitly criticised in one of your
> mails) is mostly very accurate in his sources.
>
        Give me an example of his "accuracy."

> Where do you gather that my website reinforces misconceptions.
>
        Because of the quality of your posts on this list, your own claims
to be able to characterize books you haven't read, and the quality of the
sources you say you use..

        Francine Nicholson

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