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Subject: Re: Pursuing the treasure-bearing dragon to his Welsh lair ...
From: "R.Karl" <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:CELTIC-L - The Celtic Culture List.
Date:Fri, 6 Oct 2006 13:05:12 +0100

text/plain (217 lines)

Hi again,

and while I'm at it, did't I just say something about dinosaurs being 
off topic and mails to be sent in plain text? I'll make some points on 
both subjects:

Mel Erskine-Richmond wrote:
> (This leaves my hands in font size 14pt Ariel)

It shoul, however, left you computer as plain text only. A further 
reason you will see explained below. But first to your starting sentences:

> If Welsh-descent Celts may share their enthusiasm for dinosaurs,

Of course they may, but, please, on Dinosaur-L, not on Celtic-L. That 
someone of Welsh descent is enthusiastic about dinosaurs does not 
establish a valid connection between dinosaurs and Celtic culture.

 > and to  discuss the possible origins of this interest,

Again, you may do so, but please do so on Dinosaur-L

 > it may
 > be somewhat mind-blowing to examine the collected Ica stones
 > assemblage made by Dr. Javier Cabrera of Ica, Peru.

Why? I had a look at the page you've referenced below and fail to see 
any 'Celtic' connection.

> Cabrera spent over 40 years collecting the stones he held, and
 > reported that he had 11,000 carved stones in his Collection.
 > --- .

So it is claimed. However, one just needs to have a look at some other 
parts of the labyrinthina web site to see the angle where all this is 
coming from. I just quote from "THE 
ICA STONES OF PERU. An ancient stone library left by a space-faring 
Now, one may think of this what one likes, and if you want to believe in 
spacefaring civilisations fighting dinosaurs on earth and leaving a 
stone library behind as a document to their exploits, so be it. However, 
what I don't see at all is any connection to Celtic culture. So, what is 
it's place on this list?

> Is it likely that such a vast array of stones of such intricate 
> workmanship were all created by him, and for the soul purpose of 
> tricking the archaeological community! Rather an impossible amount of 
> time would go into such prodigious artistic creativity, as should be 
> noted by any independently thinking person whether or not an 
> archaeologist, towards such a beautiful and meticulously designed 
> gallery of art in stone.

So of course it's the stupid, arrogant archaeologists who simply are to 
stubborn and blind to see the plainly obvious, and they are trying to 
repress knowledge of this earth-shattering discoveries because it would 
threaten what?
Now, I've been an archaeologist for about 20 years now, and I actually 
want to find out about the past. I may be dumb, but generally speaking, 
archaeologists are on average rather bright, highly educated people who 
have been trained as scientists, which means that one of their core 
approaches is to question everything, including their own wisdom. That 
all archaeologists on this planet adre simply too stupid to see the 
importance of such a discovery, if it were for real, is extremely unlikely.
That leaves us only with the alternative option that there is a huge 
archaeological world conspiracy, that tries to hide the real past, 
probably for some sinister reason. If you are a fan of conspiracy 
theories, you may well believe in that, even though I fail to see what 
this archaeological world conspiracy would have as a motive to do this. 
And that leaves aside that I can't really imagine a conspiracy that 
successfully keeps well many thousands of professional and even more 
semi-professional members so tightly in line that in the 200 years that 
archaeology now exists, not a single whistleblower has made it into the 

Now, that's all fine by me if you want to believe any of that, but still 
I don't see any connection to Celtic culture. Perhaps you'd care to 
explain the connection to us?

> I really don't want to talk about maths, but to draw your attention to 
> the Celtic-like design work within the craftsmanship. 

Now, this is something I can much better deal with. Perhaps you might 
point out, with examples and ideally with references to respectable 
literature, where you see Celtic-like design on these stones, because I 
see none of that. There's no spiral patterns, no interlace, no other 
patterns that are commonly to be found in Celtic art. The way the 
figures are carved on the stone isn't reminiscent of any Celtic art that 
I have ever seen either, other than in the sense that they are vaguely 
human looking figures, and vaguely human looking figures (which, 
however, don't look much like those on the stones shown at your link) 
also appear in Celtic art. But then, so do many figures in Japanese 
animated films, which also occasionally have humas riding on dinosaurs 
in them, so that then should be classed as 'Celtic' images too - so why 
don't we have discussions on Manga comics on this list?

> If, in addition  there is linguistic resonance to Middle Eastern-Celtic
 > terms,

Sorry, but what are 'middle eastern Celtic terms'? Do you mean Galatian? 
Or what?
And even if there were, how does this connect Peruvian stones to Celtic 
culture? Peru is in South America, not in the middle East (at least when 
last I looked).

> what might anyone conclude but they had either some commonality of
 > heritage, or cultural contact had been achieved?

Well, first of all, one might actually look at the evidence and analyse 
it in a systematic, methodical and sufficiently detailed way, not draw 
wide overarching connections based on some wild speculations and 
unfounded, ecclectic comparisons of surface similarities. Pictures of 
the human image, for instance, are by no means limited to Celtic art, 
but are something that is very common and needs no explanation that 
postulates a common origin, let alone a Celtic origin. And that leaves 
aside the rather high likelyhood that the images shown on the webpage 
you referred us to in fact are fakes, and blatantly obvious ones at that.
Rather than throwing around wld speculations about common origins and 
ancent spacefaring races establishing connections between opposite sides 
of the planet, with some million years of temporal discrepancy, we might 
have a look at actual Celtic culture-related evidence. For instance by 
having a look at Constanze Witt's homepage at, or some of the 
pages that show Celtic art and give reliable academic references, like 
e.g. But that, probably, would 
be too boring, to restrictive, and too down to earth. No aliens in 
there, how sad.

<snipped the maths>
> And if you check the page listed here, which I just 
> found you might appreciate that these stones are of high craftsmanship, 
> and resonate with the intricate geometries of the Celt-Phoenican artisans.

What are Celto-Phoenician artisans? Do you mean Celtiberian artisans? Or 
Lusitanian ones? Are Celts and Phoenicians the same to you? If yes, get 
your facts straight, because they aren't generally accepted as the same, 
but rather as two quite distinct groups. But perhaps you might want to 
argue against that, too - but if, please with references. I know, 
referencing stuff is boring, but then, it allows others to check out 
what you've been saying, which empowers them in that they can see for 
themselves, and don't have to believe what you're claiming.


Right, this now brings me to the second reason as to why no 
html-formatted mails should be sent to the list:
The stuff you copied from the web into your mail - apart from the fact 
that it is off topic - contained some javascript coding, and javascript 
can be used to do lots of funny things on your computer that you might 
not at all want to happen. Like infect your machine with viruses and 
such. As a result, some providers (like my university) have incoming 
javascripts disabled. In my copy of you mail, this results in the following:

> <java...peru-tomb-art.htm');>Mae'r MailScanner wedi canfod ymgais
 > bosibl i dwyllo o/MailScanner has detected a possible fraud
 > attempt from "JavaScript"< ...

So what you did, by sending the html-formatted mail, is clutter up my 
computer with links that wouldn't work. The same will have happened for 
some other of the 500odd people subscribed to this list. The rest (for 
whom those links were working) may have had their computer invaded by 
harmful code, thanks to your insistence to send html-formatted emails.

Now while you might find that jolly funny, someone whose machine doesn't 
work any more and who may be loosing all his/her daa, just because you 
can't be bothered to turn off your html-mail-function, might not find 
that funny at all. So - once again - please stop to send html-formatted 
mails to this list. If you can't or won't, I will have to block your 
address from sending further mails to this list.




PD Mag.Dr. Raimund KARL FSA(Scot) MIFA
Senior Lecturer in Heritage and Archaeology
University of Wales Bangor
Department of History and Welsh History
Ogwen Building, Siliwen Road, LL57 2DG
Gwynedd, Cymru, UK
Email: <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Phone: (+44 1248) 351151/2247
Mobile:(+44 7970) 993891

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