On Sun, 1 Dec 1996 15:40:18 +0900 Russ and Shannon <[log in to unmask]>
and etc snipped for length ...
> ... My earliest known ancestor was a militiaman in Vermont ...
... and mine was in Maryland. Soldier, blacksmith and farmer (the family
has been in the same businesses ever since)
> My gggg-grandfather was granted an expanse of land in Vermont
Yeah, ours was in Ohio as a vetrans grant after the War of 1812 to settle
the "Wild West".
> ... just weren't.... anything. We became "Americans", with no past
>history, like so many others here.
Welcome to the club.
> The sad part of it all is I cannot take us from the shores of
>America to Scotland or Ireland, all my history is....conjecture only,
>roots were ripped out of Scotland/England and Ireland.
Mine is part conjecture for the same reason and partly known due to later
- more officially recorded - immigration.
> The thing that strikes me as odd though is, with so many
>beaten back, run off and killed, why hasn't there ever been a reckoning?
There only has been in minor ways. I think one of the reasons there has
been such widespread support for the Irish Republican Causes here in
America is that each family congealed a sort of living family myth of the
ancestral homeland at whatever time their ancestors arrived; be that
1750, 1850 or 1900. This is also why there is a disparity of opinion in
Americans regarding what their heritage means. It comes from being
distilled in different vintages.
All of those immigrations were as a result of a kind of diaspora and the
resultant hostility within them remained in a passive, yet outspoken, way
from the original immigrants and was passed down (at least by some) to
their descendants. There was, after all, nothing they could have done in
an active way. Most were thankful to just be alive and have a chance to
succeed in a new land.
>Also, and I don't mean to be insulting, but what Scots were left in
Scotland after all
Actually, I think it is an excellent question. My guess is they were
HEAVILY loyal to the crown. Survival, you know.
> I wonder if maybe, (and this all may have been from an old
>thread), there aren't more Celts in the Americas and in Australia than
there are in
>Scotland and Ireland today, but we just aren't being as clannish as we
should be ...
Rusty and Shannon, boy, have you got it right. I don't have the exact
numbers, BUT, there is something in the neighborhood of 78 million Celts
in the US - I believe - but only around (for example) 5 million or so
Irish in Ireland. Maybe the British were right, we do breed like rabbits.
[ : )
For a great long time the Irish, at least, stuck together in a communal
way. This was, IMO, thanks to the mother church.
When the Irish here in America couldn't get work anywhere because the
businesses wouldn't hire the Irish, we started many of our own that would
hire the Irish (The Irish Teamster's for example - which became a union.
Just scroll through a phone book and count the scores of names of
businesses that are Celt.)
We started labor Unions. We habituated so many civil service jobs when no
one else wanted them that Irish terms abound in government. "Seamus" is
still slang for a detective, for example (but don't ask about a "Paddy
We started many major hospitals because the existing ones would not treat
the Irish. We started our own schools and universities (like Notre Dame
and Georgetown) because the existing ones would not accept Irish
Exactly why disunity began a couple of decades ago is speculative. A
growing away from the church as a central focal point, a desire to "blend
in" with the *perceived* larger society of Anglo's, and a breaking up of
strictly Irish organizations under the guise of "de-segregation" all
played a role. The Scotch and Welsh, too, had a similar, yet smaller,
degree of solidarity and eventual disunity for similar reasons, in my
I don't know if the solidarity can ever be regained, because every time
someone tries, others cry "prejudice".
Bruce L. Jones
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Mojave Desert - The Geographic Center of Nowhere